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Movement's New Denver Climbing Gym

Victor K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 170

Great points all around! The endurance model is new one for me. The real test will be in few months, when I get to see the impact on my outdoor climbing. Nicelegs, thanks for the reference.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

I fully appreciate what nicelegs is saying, but I don't see any mutual exclusivity.

I don't like routes that tweak my fingers or whatnot at the gym. And I do want to train endurance. And technique. If I really wanna train power, I'll boulder.

And none of that means the routes need be boring or non-technical. And I don't think Movements routes are boring, but I do find them a bit non-technical. Hopefully that will change. I regularly find myself stumped on routes at RJ. Hasn't happened to me yet at Movement.

You are taller than nicelegs fiancé, Ana. I've met you both. :)

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Anyone know if the new Movement has autobelays?

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

No auto belay. That's actually my biggest reservation about a membership there.

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I totally agree that gym routes should follow the endurance model. The difficulty should gradually increase as you go up, and there should be one or two distinct cruxes that involve more power or technique than the rest of the moves, but are in no way sketchy or tweaky. I think Movement has done this pretty well based on the couple dozen lines I've climbed there so far.

For more intense power and technique training, work limit bouldering into your training. It's easier to repeat difficult moves without being that guy/gal that hogs a rope and route for thirty minutes or more whilst sussing out (read -- hang dogging) the crux on their plastic projy proj. But I've only bouldered at Movement for a half hour so far, so I cannot fairly judge how they're doing on that front just yet.

I bet the grades will probably become a bit truer once new sets start going up. It'd be hard for them to ignore the consensus grading that their members are so readily volunteering.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
nicelegs wrote:I'm coming from a different place than you. I actually feel that highly technical routes are a detriment to training. My goals in gym training are endurance, power endurance, and not getting injured.
I just want to point out that "technical" means more than just small crimps or tweaky moves. There are many techniques that have little to do with the types of handholds on a route and most climbers neglect working on them, instead they focus on getting physically stronger, when improving their technique would actually make them better climbers.

Adding or changing a technique will often drop you down a full number grade while you're learning it, and most climbers don't want to do that.

For example, after 30-something years of climbing, I hired a coach because I still want to improve. He has me work on technique 90% of the time. It's not that my technique is all that bad, but because better technique will get me climbing the grades I want, faster. It's also more mentally engaging, and more of a challenge, to uproot old habits and ingrain new ones.

Another example: I've been route-setting at my local club. The wall is neither long nor steep, so I set the routes to require a variety of techniques and sequences that you rarely see indoors.

I've gotten complaints that my routes are harder (for the rating) than the other gyms in town. I just laugh, and tell them that when they get to a hard section, try some different techniques instead of just strength. (I laugh because I've never done any route over 11- at those gyms; which are focused on power-endurance and totally sandbagged.)
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
teece303 wrote:No auto belay. That's actually my biggest reservation about a membership there.
Lame. So the big question then is Earth Trex or the new Movement better?
Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

Climbing friend!

I write to tell to you I go to the gym of movement denver this week two time. I crush many naughty hold of odd plastic shape with powerful hands, at highest grades possible, because that is all that matters.

Yes this gym is having of the prices way too high. I do no like and will mostly go to the Denver Bouldering Club instead for this reason. I may never climb outdoors again due to the ease and convenience and ego boosting feelings achieved on enjoyable, plastic flash.

I have lovings most for the Movement Denver bouldering area and find interesting angles as well as most enjoyable setting of the routes of the climbing rocks of the plastic.

I also find that I very much enjoy the being able to topout after difficult, enjoyable flash on the climbing rocks of plastic. However I become confused at the topout area because there appearing a permanent metal gate you must climb over to get down the stairs back to the climbing rocks. Perhaps this is a strange insurance company policy as one gym employee tell to me they must have it. It no make sense.

I agree with the complainings about the pricings, but for the love of all that is holy, must you really be needing of the complaining of every other aspect of this holy place for flash the plastic climbing rocks? You must think of Sven Lavransen and how he must would enjoy these plastic rocks, and simply climb on, with your breathing smooth, movement solid, and heart lifting you up to your next glorious flash!

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

Went to the gym a couple days ago for the first time & had a long ass workout. I generally liked the setting for both the routes & boulder problems, the latter was somewhat a surprise as I was never really psyched about the boulder problems at the Boulder Movement (but I've started bouldering a lot more recently & can appreciate the intricacies more, so that may be the difference). Time will tell if the routesetting keeps up.

Compared to the Boulder Movement, the lead wall isn't dominated by a very overhung cave (although a section of the wall is certainly that), instead there are more consistent moderately overhung terrain, which I think is an improvement.

Compared to ET, facility wise, besides the lead wall, ET is actually better in almost every way: more aesthetically pleasing bouldering terrain (one of the best I've seen), bigger training facility (system wall, weight area, etc). But boy, did ET fuck up the lead wall angle. Still, the Movement Denver facility is perfectly functional & adequate, and if the Boulder gym is any indication, would reset at a much more reasonable pace than the anemic pace ET seems to have.

In short, I thought it's a long overdue full service climbing gym in Denver, & a nice one at that.

For those of you that are bitching about how much it costs (maybe with the exception of beefcake above), have a listen to this:
npr.org/blogs/money/2014/12…
The short version: you are not dedicated enough.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
reboot wrote: For those of you that are bitching about how much it costs (maybe with the exception of beefcake above), have a listen to this: npr.org/blogs/money/2014/12… The short version: you are not dedicated enough.
I dont think you can really compare a climbing gym to a standard gym. Standard gyms are much more popular and they attract the general population. Climbing gyms are not the best place to go if you want to improve your cardio, get a six-pack and loose weight, which is what most people that join normal gyms want. A standard gym is better suited for those purposes.

Climbing gyms on the other hand are specialized and do not attract to the general population (although some are trying to change that), but rather to a narrower, niche population. Your average climbing gym user is likely more dedicated to climbing than your average general gym user is dedicated to general fitness. This means the tactics mentioned in the talk show are probably not going to be effective for most people at a climbing gym as those who sign up for a membership are more likely to be dedicated to climbing to some degree.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
20 kN wrote: Climbing gyms are not the best place to go if you want to improve your cardio, get a six-pack and loose weight, which is what most people that join normal gyms want.
I realize I'm entering into a causation vs correlation debate here but I would bet that there are more 6-packs, lower BMI's, and better cardio among climbing wall members than Lifetime Fitness members.

This speaks more to the lifestyle that climbing enables/forces than what is gained only at the wall.

I'd say that if a gym (any gym) gets you psyched, it'll get you into shape.
Ralph Swansen · · Boulder CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 761

My normal climbing buddy is at El Potrero right now and I need some more gym partners. So enough talking about it, lets climb!

Tzilla Rapdrilla · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 955

Went back to ET after several sessions at the new Movement and really remembered just how bad the route setting at ET is, awkward, weird moves with no footholds where you need them, etc. Movement's route setting is way better than ET.

Derek Lawrence · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 695

My only complaint with ET's route setting is that they need to change out the routes more often.
In regards to comparing the gyms, other than 1 section of wall on the main lead wall (the steepest section), ET pretty much blows Movement away in every other way. Locker rooms, bouldering, kids climbing, training area, the rest of the walls are all MUCH better at ET. Even with folks telling me the route setting was much better at Movement as it was consistent (albeit soft for the grade) I found that not accurate. Onsighted an 11D, almost fell off a 10D...

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Derek Lawrence wrote:Onsighted an 11D, almost fell off a 10D...
Well, you can blame your fellow climbers for that then, unless they are doing grading at the new gym differently than the old. Last I was in Movement, all their roped-climbing grades were chosen solely by popular vote, not by the FA. That is by far the most accurate way to do it IMO as it ensures a consensus opinion as opposed to the opinion of just one person. All routes should probably be graded this way.

I found the grades at Movement Boulder to be quite linear. If a route was graded harder, it typically was. The only time I found the route grading to be off was if a route emphasized a particular type of style not common in sport climbing (e.g. technical stemming), in which the grade felt softer since most of the people that climbed and voted on the route were likely not familiar with the style. Otherwise the grading seemed good overall (albeit a bit soft sometimes).
slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103

Well, you can blame your fellow climbers for that then, unless they are doing grading at the new gym differently than the old. Last I was in Movement, all their roped-climbing grades were chosen solely by popular vote, not by the FA.

i'm not sure this is really correct. i think they would put up a route with an assumed grade, and then have a sheet on the wall where folks could post their assessed grade. maybe for feedback?

as for ET blowing movement away, i love you derek 'ol buddy, but yer on drugs. nicelegs assessment of the wall angles at ET is spot on - they totally blow. other folks assessment of the routesetting at ET is spot on - it generally blows.

here are a few of my thoughts on the new movement gym;

1) the general bouldering area is greatly improved over boulder movement, simply by making the corridor wider. you don't need eyes on the back of your head to avoid getting pummeled. it is also bigger in almost every way. there is also a separate bouldering area with a ton of random holds so you can make your own problems, usually in solitude. one minor drawback is that overall the walls are a bit thin on routes, but this will likely improve over time as they get more holds and put up more routes. there is also yet another small bouldering area on the bottom floor in the back that has some traverse routes. all in all, a lot of good variety.

2) we really, really like how they have split the weight room into 2 rooms - one for classes, one for people just working out. at the boulder movement it is really tight if you are trying to work out in the evening as the classes take up a lot of room and resources. this is a huge improvement over the boulder movement, and i think it really highlights one of the may ways they have addressed user comments. a couple minor drawbacks, the individual workout room doesn't have ceiling structure that is easily compatible with sling training. it isn't too hard to work around this though. also, they could use some of those little floor mats in the individual workout room.

3) i like the systems board, particularly because it has pockets, a ton of small feet, and you can adjust the angle. the campus board isn't (currently) as good as boulder movement, but really only due to the lack of half step rungs. this can easily be addressed.

4) the walls are nice and tall, and have really good angles for training the types of terrain that are found a lot in the front range. this is great. one thing to be careful though - if you bought a gym rope at the boulder movement, it may or may not be long enough for the big steep wall, so be careful with this.

overall i think they took all of the great things of the boulder movement and did a really good job of incorporating feedback and making some tweaks to improve the new version. the staff is very friendly and professional. the air filtration system is great. routesetting is good and varied. parking is infinitely better. job well done in my opinion.

teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

"Well, you can blame your fellow climbers for that then, unless they are doing grading at the new gym differently than the old. Last I was in Movement, all their roped-climbing grades were chosen solely by popular vote, not by the FA. That is by far the most accurate way to do it IMO as it ensures a consensus opinion as opposed to the opinion of just one person. All routes should probably be graded this way."

20kN:
This is not really a popular vote that can give us a true consensus grade: see anchoring bias.

The routesetters picked the initial 3 grades one is allowed to vote for, and this can have a SIGNIFICANT effect on perceived difficulty. So much so that if the routesetters are "wrong" in some way with the first guess of difficulty, they will probably NOT be corrected.

Even if they let you vote for any grade you wanted (easily) most votes for difficulty will cluster around the initial routesetter's estimate, EVEN IF that setter intentionally mis-graded the climb: it's the nature of the human psyche.

Once a number had been assigned to a variable like this, our brain has a hard time un-anchoring from that number. Even if we rationally believe the original number was fraudulent. (Used car salesman are intuitively very aware of this fact).

If the route is really hard for the given three grade window, it will be voted at the top of that window, and at the bottom, if it's soft, but the grades would be unlikely to ever stray far from the middle grade given on the vote box.

The vote would have to be completely open (give the route any grade you want), prior votes would need to be hidden from voters, and most importantly, the route would have to have no pre-assigned grade, for there to be much hope that the route grades were truly consensus. Obviously, that wouldn't work for a gym.

So we really are relying on the setter to pick a good number for the first estimate of route difficulty.

Yes, this means that most routes outside are also not "consensus" grades. Probably even less so! It's just a fact of life (and why we argue about it so much! With a true, blind vote, many routes out there would have rather different grades, I suspect).

This psychological phenomenon is also behind the reason why you should be very careful about who puts out the first dollar figure when negotiating any kind of price.

Any way, this is neither here nor there, but I think anchoring bias is a fascinating thing to study and think about.

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

Anchor bias is interesting and all, but you're failing to factor in the sandbag/downgrade effect. A true hardman will always downgrade after the send. So it is logical to conclude that this behavior will propagate to the indoor climbing environment.

The gym hardman will write in his/her own suggested rating (often a full number grade softer than the lowest grade that the setter has listed). This creates a second "anchor", thereby attracting support from other hardmen and/or wanna be hardmen. Inevitably, the sandbagged suggestion will be sandbagged itself, and then the suggested rating that sandbags the already sandbagged rating will also become sandbagged, and so on.

The setter then, as a rule, chooses the grade at exactly one letter grade beneath the lowest he originally suggested.

As it was in the beginning, and now, and always, and to the ages of ages.

Amen.

Victor K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 170

A lot of routes have write-in grades, and they get included in the rating. I noticed a lot of routes have designated grades lower than the initial proposed range. The gym is getting closer to people's expectations. I'm enjoying this great new facility.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Sure, I get that there are mental conundrums that affect a person's vote. But I still think that some form of consensus grade is still far more accurate than a few of the same setters going around and grading everything in the gym.

Also, I have seen people write in a custom grade, and Movement go with the custom grade over the pre-chosen three choices. Something like .11b, .11c and .11d will be on the card and someone will hand write .11a.

Also, I think the ability of the setter has a huge effect on the preserved difficulty of the route. Routes that are set well and are straightforward are more likely to get a more accurate rating than some route that is set poorly, in which you have people saying "this V2 feels like V5" because they dont understand how the setter wanted the route to go down.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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