How Rap Slings came to the Gunks

Tom Stryker wrote:Really? Orders of magnitude more bolts than the Gunks? One order of magnitude would be 10x more yes? So there's like 100 or a 1000 times more bolts in the Dacks than the Gunks? I 'll admit my climbing there has been limited to Chapel Pond, Spider's Web, Pok-o-Moon and Beer Walls, but that seems like quite a stretch.

Slight hyperbole on my part- but only slight. In reality, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dacks had at least one order of magnitude (10x) more bolts than the Gunks. Unlike the Gunks, the Dacks have many fully bolted pitches. Ten bolts of face climbing to a two bolts anchor--for twelve bolts-- is equivalent to 6 Gunks rap/TR anchors. When you multiple this by a large crag with many such pitches (i.e. Poko), this adds up really fast. Plus, the Dacks are just an expansive area.

For those more familiar with the Gunks: about how many bolts do you think there are in that cliff line? 250? 500? 1000?

A good example of a anchor that is mis-used is the three piton chain anchor on Son of Easy O that appeared fairly recently. It is used extensively to gang top-rope the climb. A climb that is already highly polished by years of use. A better (IMHO) alternative for Gunks raps would have been to set up rappels on areas of the cliff that are not over existing climbs. Like the High E rap. That way people can rap down without going on top of another party and without making a convenient top-rope anchor for gangs of top-ropers.

JCM wrote: For those more familiar with the Gunks: about how many bolts do you think there are in that cliff line? 250? 500? 1000?

I thought it was more like 5 or 10 bolts at the Gunks. Am I totally insane?

JCM wrote: For those more familiar with the Gunks: about how many bolts do you think there are in that cliff line? 250? 500? 1000?

I wouldn't even guess that many. Excluding anchors, I can think of about thirty routes through the whole region, let alone just the trapps, that have a bolt or are bolted

You know when I look upthread I don't see anyone I think doesn't understand the population pressures the Gunks face, or that 10 bolts plus two anchor bolts equals six rap anchors.

I can't name twenty bolts that existed before the rap anchors, but I'm not local.

JCM wrote:For those more familiar with the Gunks: about how many bolts do you think there are in that cliff line? 250? 500? 1000?

I climbed in the Gunks from 1972-2000. At one time (mid-2000's?) I remember seeing a list of the bolted rap stations in the Gunks. There were ~45 IIRC, so say maybe 50 now for sake of argument? That's 100 bolts. Other than that, there are around a dozen or two protection bolts. (I don't know what's been happening at Skytop now that guiding is allowed.)

If we put our collective mind to it, we can count them:
Arrow - 2
Never Never Land - 1
Keep On Struttin' - 1
Dry Heaves (or is it Tequila Mockingbird or something near there)- 1
Yellow Wall - 2?
T-Zone - 1
Turdland - 2 or 3?
Wonderland - 1
Sente - 3
etc....

Do we include routes on closed land (Clairvoyance, Gravity's Rainbow)?

IOW, I'm pretty confident the total number is well under 200, including Skytop and Millbrook.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:I have no problem with bolts and climbing ... I do have a problem with retro bolting existing classics and by doing so drasticly changeing the way they climb.

Could you give an example of a Gunks route that was "retro-bolted" and now climbs in a "drastically" changed fashion? My understanding is bolts have been added to anchors, but that no routes have had protection bolts added to the lead.

Curious how adding bolts at anchors "drastically" changes the way a climb "climbs".

Mark E Dixon wrote: I thought it was more like 5 or 10 bolts at the Gunks. Am I totally insane?

The following trapps routes have bolts, excluding anchors: phoebe, turdland, NNL, sente, arrow, zone, keep on struttin, yellow wall, scary area, carbs, future shock, and maybe another obscure one or two I'm forgetting.

Mill brook has zero. And zero fixed anchors or rappels. That's rad, and unique to ANY trad area in the country.

Doesn't Wonderland have one? Maybe I'm thinking of Turdland?

Tom Stryker wrote:I can't name twenty bolts that existed before the rap anchors, but I'm not local.

The bolted rap anchors put in by the preserve started in 1999 with 5 stations. They replaced rotting pins/rat's nests of tat.

The Preserve ban on new bolts began in 1986.

Marc801 wrote: etc.... Do we include routes on closed land (Clairvoyance, Gravity's Rainbow)? IOW, I'm pretty confident the total number is well under 200, including Skytop and Millbrook.

In the interest of accuracy, neither of these routes are closed. They are open, just undocumented. And only Clair has bolts, not Gravity's

BigA wrote: In the interest of accuracy, neither of these routes are closed. They are open, just undocumented. And only Clair has bolts, not Gravity's

Yeah - wasn't sure about Gravity's. Last time I was in that neck of the woods, the land that those are on was very clearly posted in no uncertain terms.

Marc801 wrote: Yeah - wasn't sure about Gravity's. Last time I was in that neck of the woods, the land that those are on was very clearly posted in no uncertain terms.

You might be confused with cybernetics and AI?

BigA wrote: You might be confused with cybernetics and AI?

Snap! Thank you! It's been a lot of years and my aging memory.......
Besides, those climbs have numbers that were eternally out of reach for gumbies like me, so knowing details is merely academic interest!

What I find sad about all this is that, "in reality" the entire place could have functioned just fine with the twenty bolts it had. As someone said " how rad is that !".

Best thing you could possibly do for this issue at the gunks would be to remove all the bolted belays that were retroed. Establish well marked trails on the summit ridge and a half dozen rap routes that do not interfere with populer climbs.

What i find funny in a really sad way is that they banned bolts and then retrobolted the piss out of the place.

Tom Stryker wrote:What I find sad about all this is that, "in reality" the entire place could have functioned just fine with the twenty bolts it had. As someone said " how rad is that !".

At the time the Preserve started placing anchors, the primary stated reason was that there were existing anchors composed of pins/tat/rap rings and quick-links that were visually intrusive and many other (meaning non-climber) Preserve members were starting to complain about them. One of the poster-child offending anchors was the P1 anchor on Birdland. A secondary reason was to save trees that had become permanent anchors - eg: Jackie.

It all started with something like 5 - 10 existing anchors. At some point a few years later it became evident that many of the anchors going in were much more for convenience - eg: on climbs that have a good first pitch and lackluster climbing on the upper pitches.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:What i find funny in a really sad way is that they banned bolts and then retrobolted the piss out of the place.

I'm not aware of any routes that were retrobolted - just existing anchors that were replaced with bolts.

Not wanting to speak for Nick, I think he is referring to the experience overall. One of the cool things you had to do in the Gunks was make a belay with what you had left.