New Bouldering Guidebook for Portland/Seattle Northwest

Just wanted to inform people on here about the "fake" accounts that you think are being made just to slander Rob's book. Those are all real people! In fact, the only thing fake is Rob's research! My friends and I are in the same boat as Pablo. We have been developing the North Bend boulders for several years now. Rob took it upon himself to find our blog, use our info and our name's without permission. As Pablo stated above, Rob misnamed climbs, his grading is absolutely atrocious and many of the gps coordinates lead no where.

With that being said, I have a friend who got banned from this site for merely creating an account to write a legitimate post about the problems with this book. His account was put on hold and the comment deleted. Next he tried to contact Nick Wilder to express his concerns about Rob's guide, with no response from Nick, his account was deactivated. This absolutely ridiculous in every way, shape and form. I've never been a huge fan of this site but Rob's actions gave me enough cause to chime in.

I really can't believe that a supposed climber would do this to fellow climbers and I'm shocked at all of you that are defending his actions. It really upset me to watch people call my friends fake for expressing there concerns.

Here's the conversation between my friend Nate and Nick.

Nate: Why has my account been put on hold?

Nick: You appear to have created an account for the sole purpose writing a post to denigrate someone’s new book. Your writing style seemed personally vindictive and not objective. I strongly suspect you have a personal problem with the book author. I don’t care about those details, and I don’t want Mountain Project involved.

Nate: I'm just trying to warn other climbers about what this guy does. I don't even know him personally, just that many, many developers of the areas he wrote about are pretty upset about this book. Just trying to spread the word. A lot of the pictures, names and other things he used in the book were used without permission from the appropriate parties. I wasn't trying to be vindictive, just honest. I'm sorry if I caused any problems, I just think that people need to know.

Nate: Considering the deactivation of my account and the lack of an email response, I'll take it that you don't care about our issues over here in the PNW. What this guy did is completely unethical and it saddens me that someone such as yourself, a rock climbing webpage administrator, doesn't care. Congratulations on contributing to poor climbing ethics!

Cheers!

As you can see, Nate was not rude anyway. He was merely expressing his concerns like many others about Rob's lackluster book. I hope that Mountain Project can find some people that actually care about developers and don't get all delete happy because Nick thinks your account is fake.

In closing, I hope you all understand what's going on here. This is plagiarism in its simplest form. Have a good day and happy new years to all my friends; Pablo, Jessie, Andrew, Nate and Jimmy Chulich

Derik seems to have not read my prior post (many hours ago) that the accounts were not fake, but highly suspicious. I did respond to Nate (which Derik actually quotes) and I did restore 3 of the 4 suspicious accounts but missed Nate's, which I have since reactivated.

As you can imagine, when MP has a flurry of new accounts whose sole activity appears malicious, I attempt to contain potential problems ASAP. In this instance, there were 4 new accounts created within a few hours, all with single posts to this topic, all with variations of "this book sucks". That is highly suspicious, and so I acted accordingly.

I talked to a Portland local today and he said the Oregon portion of the guide is great and buy the book for that portion alone. If you wish to boulder in Western Washington though, save your money and don't support a guide book created with poor ethics. To the above post about books being written by non-developers, I agree many, many books are written this way but one key difference is collaboration between the developers and the writers. By defying the 'locals' wishes to leave certain parts out is unethical and does not belong in the climbing community. By publishing the information anyways, wrong, inaccurate and made up names/grades ect. are now going to be circulated through the community. Understandably, this will upset the developers whom spent a lot of time and effort into cleaning and establishing these excellent boulder problems. Therefore these lead to justified negative reviews of a piece of writing. If this was posted to a peer review journal of climbing, it would receive the same negative critiques. So please make sure you understand what you are buying when purchasing this book and the legitimacy of the negative reviews for the Washington Section.

Also, I love coming down to Portland to climb with my Sister. Could you offer an Oregon only download version for $20? Something that I could put on my Touch?

As far as the $40 price tag, and as a point of reference, I purchased the Bouldering Guide to Utah for $35. Because the book is out of print, they're selling for ~$100. I would have a hard time giving mine up for anything less than $200.

I'm glad there's at least an option in the PNW bouldering guide book realm. Can those that are critical of this book suggest a comprehensive alternate? Also, it seems like there might be a general frustration with this info now being "on the street?"

It's not a question of being protective of climbing areas, or of disliking the author. As was stated in multiple previous posts many hard working developers in western Washington attempted to or were willing to collaborate with the author on the information in this book. The complaints are that the information for the climbing in western Washington is inaccurate, which it is. There is a myriad of factual errors for the western Washington area. I don't know about Oregon so am not speaking to that portion at all.

Micah Klesick wrote:I know in Oregon, and most likely in WA, developers tend to be protective of "their" Public Land boulders. I never understood why people get so dang obsessive about public land climbing. I know that's been an issue down here, people getting pissed because "their" secret spot on Public Land gets discovered and someone put it on MP or in a book. So then the developers get all pissy, refuse to give up info, and well, it gets recorded wrongly, at no fault of anyone but the developers. That may or may not have been what happened, but I know for a fact it happened down here in the Portland area.

+1. I'm not even a boulderer. Chances are you will never see me at any of these boulders. My biggest beef is that the critics of this book just came out and trashed the guy. If people had laid out the issue as Pablos post had I wouldnt even had commented.

Micah Klesick wrote:I know in Oregon, and most likely in WA, developers tend to be protective of "their" Public Land boulders. I never understood why people get so dang obsessive about public land climbing. I know that's been an issue down here, people getting pissed because "their" secret spot on Public Land gets discovered and someone put it on MP or in a book. So then the developers get all pissy, refuse to give up info, and well, it gets recorded wrongly, at no fault of anyone but the developers. That may or may not have been what happened, but I know for a fact it happened down here in the Portland area.

Pablo and crew actually kept a blog with topos and pictures to let people know about new problems and areas they had discovered and scrubbed. They are some of the least secretive climbers I've met, and super generous about sharing beta. What we're objecting to is having a guidebook out that includes inaccurate FA information, locations, and names and uncredited photos and topos.

I can't speak to others' experiences, but Rob contacted me via MP and asked permission to use a photo I'd posted from Banks Lake. As thanks, he sent me a courtesy copy of the guide, which I thought was pretty generous given my level of "contribution." I agree with other posters that the book is filled with spelling errors and poor editing. I also found the organization/layout somewhat puzzling for some of the areas I've visited; e.g., Morpheus. That said, it's a regional book. It barely scratches the surface of the areas I know, with plenty of room for future area specific guides to provide more detail, if someone wants to write them. And I'm psyched to check out some of the Oregon stuff in the Gorge and near Mt. Hood.

Andy

Typical guidebook issues. Typical bouldering "developers" having a problem with someone beating them to the punch and providing bad info. Share the info then! All you own is the experience of climbing a problem. You don't own a name, you don't own the area, you don't own the rights to the experience or the rights to the place.
Is this guidebook perfect? I doubt it. Could it have been better? Probably if you guys shared your info. Everybody wants F.A.s, everybody wants the glory. Not many of you will see a guidebook through to completion. I say give anyone who looks like they can get a book into print the info they need to make it the best it can be. FOR ALL OF US.

Jason Chinchen wrote:Typical guidebook issues. Typical bouldering "developers" having a problem with someone beating them to the punch and providing bad info. Share the info then! All you own is the experience of climbing a problem. You don't own a name, you don't own the area, you don't own the rights to the experience or the rights to the place. Is this guidebook perfect? I doubt it. Could it have been better? Probably if you guys shared your info. Everybody wants F.A.s, everybody wants the glory. Not many of you will see a guidebook through to completion. I say give anyone who looks like they can get a book into print the info they need to make it the best it can be. FOR ALL OF US.

The developers did offer to edit those sections and were either refused or ignored. Since when is knowingly renaming problems and assigning grades just so you can finish your guidebook acceptable? If the author was actually interested in what was best FOR ALL OF US, then he would have hashed out the details and disputes with the developers before publishing comically erroneous information

As someone who bought the book, I would be interested in hearing exactly which areas there are mistaken directions, also which problems, boulders, and grades are wrong, and what are the corrections?

This might be more constructive at this point.

I for one think there are sections of the book that are amazing, a few that are confusing, and some that could have been left completely out due to their already being comprehensive guidebooks already available that this book did not really expand on...

I am not a developer and I have no axe to grind besides being a disappointed customer. I received this book as a Christmas gift from my wife. I am new to bouldering and live way out on the Olympic Peninsula, so was hoping for information on some areas close to home. Needless to say, I was disappointed to find nothing west of Seattle besides Mt. Eerie and the information for that area is incomplete at best. Also, no boulders between Seattle and Portland are listed. I do realize that where I live is of no relevance, but most of this book is just a re-hash of Central Washington Bouldering plus a lot of information for areas around Portland. What really grabbed my attention though, is the really, really poor grammar and spelling. I honestly can't believe this was released to the public in the state it was. Obviously no editing or spell checking was done whatsoever. Some people may say this is nitpicking, but I believe it speaks to the overall care taken with the creation of this book. Reading through all of the areas raised suspicions that the author had not actually been to or climbed everything listed. I also got the impression that he was listing and grading problems far above his actual climbing ability. Every photo that is of the author or his wife is either the first move, still a foot on the ground, or possibly photoshopped. There are also photos of mid-grade problems being "climbed" in some keen hiking shoes which seems improbable. Inaccurate gps coordinates and maps would not be surprising to me given how many mistakes are made elsewhere in the book. Very disappointed my wife shelled out $40 for this, so maybe do some more research on it before you decide to buy one. I had a assumed that, as a guidebook, this would be written by an authority on the subject. I was mistaken. I feel like posting this here is a fair thing to do as would be a review of any climbing guide. Thanks, Mike

Wait wait wait!!!! Theres bouldering in Oregon! I'm calling bullshit.

I believe we live in a free market system. Come out with a better product at a lower price and I'm sure your book will outsell this one.

Otherwise, it's just whining. No one's putting a gun to anyone's head making them purchase this book.

Frozenice,

Odd how you and so many others have just registered a user account on MP a few hours ago and the only thing you have ever used this site for is to smack talk this book. Hmmm, many you and all the others with suspicious accounts are the same?

Seriously dudes, it's an awesome guidebook. Sorry your secret spots got exposed.

The new areas in this guide must be amazing considering the stink made over them being put into a guidebook.

Bradclymber wrote:Frozenice, Odd how you and so many others have just registered a user account on MP a few hours ago and the only thing you have ever used this site for is to smack talk this book. Hmmm, many you and all the others with suspicious accounts are the same? Seriously dudes, it's an awesome guidebook. Sorry your secret spots got exposed. The new areas in this guide must be amazing considering the stink made over them being put into a guidebook.

I am a newly registered member. As I stated, I am new to climbing (just since August). I mostly climb indoors (Island Rock Gym) and live on the peninsula. I was hoping to use this "awesome" guidebook to find spots that were already developed to save myself the scrubbing and exploring I've been having to do up here. I also wanted to find accurately graded problems to compare to the gym climbing I've been doing. I mostly lurk this site as most of the info I'm looking for has already been posted up by somebody else. I'm not complaining about secret spots being exposed. I think there are two arguments going on here. There are people who were possibly plagiarized or wronged in some way, and there are people who have purchased the book and are disappointed. It is a free market, people can sell what they want, but it is the end user who gets screwed over by a crappy product. I'm trying to save people their $40 if it is as hard earned as my family's. Thanks.

I think this is a valuable thread no matter what side you are on. I'm one of the authors of the Ozone guidebook to that Portland/Vancouver area crag and I can sympathize with the difficulties of obtaining and presenting accurate information. That said, if you can't get accurate information, it is not acceptable to put out false information. End of story. To do otherwise can create the kind of trainwreck online thread and bad vibes that are evident. I don't know if that happened here - though from a quick skim of the areas I know, I felt the information was off base or didn't make any sense. But that was just my initial impression from flipping through for a few minutes.

If Rob wanted to include Morpheus, and IF (I said if) he couldn't get developers to cooperate, his proper course was to put out what he knew about Morpheus - basic directions, the few facts he knew - and leave it at that. That might have been disappointing, but he would have to work with what he had. To do otherwise, you risk your credibiity, and in the climbing world that is really all you have. There's no money, no chicks, no fame for 99.99% of us - just our reputations and the memories we make.

Also, just because you develop a problem, there is no obligation to share your information with a potential guidebook author. Period. End of story. I would share - I love to share! - and most of us would, but that doesn't make it wrong to do otherwise. People climb for many reasons, some of them unfathomable except to that individual. That diversity is wonderful and keeps this activity fresh and exciting. I have climbed what I thought were FAs only to find old tat or pitons. I got a fresh experience I may not have had if a guidebook had existed that would have discouraged me from attempting the line. So there are many ways of looking at information and assessing whether more information is always "better." Anyway, end of rant.

That said, I admire Rob at least trying to fill a void in the guidebook world, and since I don't know enough, I really don't mean to pass judgment on him - just to try and make sense of the situation.

Thank you Nick for reactivating my account as I am a real person.

Just to clear things up.
-There are no "fake accounts" here everyone on here are real people and are legitimately irritated and concerned about Rob's book.
-No one is upset about "secret spots" being revealed. We contacted Rob and asked if we could make sure his information was correct. He agreed to it but never did.
-We are not here to "trash" Robs book.

This book is full of directions and gps coordinates that are off by 20 miles, wrong names and grades for countless boulder problems and areas, some grades are off by up to 7 V grades. This book is a disgrace to the climbing and the developers of Washington. And yes the spelling and grammar is terrible in this book.

Jesse,

You said "We contacted Rob and asked if we could make sure his information was correct. He agreed to it but never did"

So why not help me now to correct these wrong names you suggest are in my book? I would be happy to correct anything that is in error.

Will you help me do this?

You said you were willing to help, so lets work together. I spoke very highly of you and your crew in my guide and am grateful of the development you have done in the Sky Valley region.

Again, I would love to correct anything wrong with my guide and as I have stated previously in this thread, I have created a page for corrections because I feel very strongly in providing accurate beta. climbingguidebooks.org/paci…

Thanks again to so many of you who have been supportive of my guide and thanks for all the kind words and feedback. I appreciate your thoughts and ongoing support.

Rob H