Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

csproul wrote: You can't argue that there are more climbers coming out of gyms that are able to climb harder routes than ever before, on bolts and on gear. If you deny that you clearly have your head in the sand (and probably missed all of the 15 year olds warming up on your project). It's unfortunate that you're "unimpressed" with the youth coming out of gyms today, because there really are a lot of impressive climbers coming out of the gym. Unfortunately, there is a lot more to being a good climber than climbing difficulty and these are the skills that are difficult/impossible to learn in the gym. But I did stupid shit and had poor judgement when I started climbing 20+ years ago too and so did a lot of climbers back then. There's just more of them around now, they're climbing harder, and not learning those "other" skills nearly as fast as they're learning to climb hard.

It might be a good idea for them to learn some skills before climbing harder. Kind of like putting the cart before the horse. I said nothing about how hard they might climb. Show me where I said that. No, I am saying, they don't have much in the way of a skill set. I am not impressed with the skill level. And, those 'other' skills may save their life or keep them safer.

Hey reboot,

If you're talking about the accident in the Red a few years ago where someone died while being belayed with a Cinch, that was a completely different scenario and didn't involve a belay failure.

Do you know of any other one?

Mal

Tradster wrote: As I said its just an opinion, but I'm not too impressed with the newbies coming out of the gym environment. Too much attitude and not enough knowledge.

I could say that about a ton of climbers that climb outdoors exclusively as well. Truth be told, many climbers take belaying for granted. They figure they havent killed their partner so far, so whatever they are doing is working fine. That is until it doesent work....

I'm rather impressed by those coming out of climbing gyms these days.

When I learnt to climb we just grabbed a rope and started up the nearest cliff. We knew nothing.

Most gyms need you to prove you kind of know how to belay, and many indoor climbers catch lots of falls. I don't think I caught a fall in my first five years of climbing. Now, thanks to indoor gyms, I catch >10 a week.

One big difference, although I don't have numeric data to prove it, is the fraction of climbers who buy books on how to climb safely. In the day we all bought these. I think we did this to give ourselves a fighting chance of staying alive. Now very few buy such books, but instead buy the how to climb harder type books.

Tradster wrote: It might be a good idea for them to learn some skills before climbing harder. Kind of like putting the cart before the horse. I said nothing about how hard they might climb. Show me where I said that. No, I am saying, they don't have much in the way of a skill set. I am not impressed with the skill level. And, those 'other' skills may save their life or keep them safer.

Acquiring technical skills while also developing the ability to climb hard are not mutually exclusive activities. Beginners can climb in the gym 4 or 5 days a week but it's much harder to find a mentor and climb outside that much. So yes their ability to climb hard will advance faster than their technical skills. So what? As long as they recognize their own limitations it's fine and whether or not you are impressed by how hard they can climb means diddly.

My general observation of people coming out of gyms is that most of them understand their limitations and really appreciate learning from more experienced climbers. Sure there are some idiots but the percentage of people in that category isn't any higher than it was 20 years ago. Because there are so many more people climbing today it may seem that way though.

In a gri gri world .... with fireballs and explosions.....

One man finds the time to keep his goatee in pristine condition. even without proper grooming equipment.

Some say he’s incredibly handsome,

others say he’s the most handsome,

but everyone says he’s the sport climber!

I added some bolding for the meaningless emphasis in order to stay consistent with this topic.

I am soooo sick of people talking about the gri-gri as the best and safest way to belay. I do not have the statistics in front of me for the entire country but I know for a fact that here in Colorado we have had more people hurt/killed due to gri gri misuse than those that can't use an ATC. I keep running into people that refuse to climb with me or my friends because we don't use a gri gri. That is now becoming a great way to discover people that have no idea what they are talking about a rend a render completely incompetent when it comes to belaying? In reality, if you will only climb while being belated with a gri gri, you are the most dangerous one at the cliff/gym. I now do my best to stay as far away from climbers that use gri gri'gri's exclusively, they seem to be the ones that have no idea.

ChefMattThaner wrote:I know for a fact that here in Colorado we have had more people hurt/killed due to gri gri misuse than those that can't use an ATC.

Just imagine how much worse it would be without an "auto locking" device being so prevalent...If all those folks only had ATCs just think of how many more noob accidents you'd have! And I will typically request that I am belayed by a grigri and only in rare circumstances will I be belayed by anything but... though most areas I climb have high rockfall potential.

Good lord...This is getting ridiculous. I started with a munter and figure 8, moved to a stitch plate, then to an ATC. I used a Gri for the first time in 1995 (a friend's), and got my own in 1997. Since then, I use only a Gri for sport. I do not carry one for longer trad, but only because I don't want to deal with two devices or the bulk of a Gri. I have also been dropped with an ATC...It sucked, bot for me and for my belayer (horrible friction burns on hands). The added security and convenience of a GriGri is worth its weight in gold in my humble opinion.

Also, I started climbing before there were gyms. I am surprised that we survived our first two years of climbing...I wish there were gyms back then to actually have a way to learn how to do it somewhat safely.

PS-don't have a death grip on climber end of the rope :-)

Morgan Patterson wrote: Just imagine how much worse it would be without an "auto locking" device being so prevalent...

That's funny.

Morgan Patterson wrote: And I will typically request that I am belayed by a grigri and only in rare circumstances will I be belayed by anything but... though most areas I climb have high rockfall potential.

I love this one. The stories are pouring in. Leader drops microwave sized block and kills belayer. But leader insisted on gri gri. So leader walks away unscathed.

I was routing for you in this thread cuz the mp sally's are annoying: "ooo, you spoke to harsh, ooo you aren't being nice, ooo my but hurts".

But your last comments were kinda lame.

The hardest route I ever sent, I was belayed by a 15 year old, with a gri gri, with 2 broken (not badly) wrists.

Given my sample size, I'd say all 15 year olds with gri gri's are safe.

Jim ewing of sterling ropes just had an accident on a grigri

Hello all. Jim is stable enough for surgery today so we are waiting for him to go in to get his pelvis and left ankle fixed. It will be a long 6-8 hour surgery. He is currently very comfortabe, having been given Dilaudid for pain and Versed for pre- sedation.
From what we've pieced together, he was climbing with Maxine on the Dixon wall at Cayman Brac, fell while working a hard move, stopped momentarily, but then started falling again. Maxine was belaying him with the grigri, noticed it was not stopping him and grabbed the rope, which might very well have saved his life. She sustained minor rope burns on her hand, which have blistered. She is ok but it was traumatic, obviously. Katie Dott and John Haley were amazing. They were climbing nearby, got help, Katie stayed with Maxine in our rented condo overnight until I could fly Maxine to Grand Cayman. Jim was airlifted to Grand Cayman, had the first surgery that night to externally fixate his pelvis for stabiliZation until we could get him to the closest available Level 1 trauma center, which is where we are now, Broward in Fort Lauderdale.
We are not sure what happened with the belay system. Jim had her anchored of course; maybe her being pulled somehow when he fell changed the angle of the grigri and it couldn't lock-we don't know. She let got of it but it did not auto-lock as it should have.
Thanks so much for all the well-wishes. It helps. Cathy, Jim's wife

www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2554469/Jim-Ewing-injured-while-climbing-at-Cayman-Brac

^^^ did you just say sample size and 15 year olds in the same sentence? Creepy.

As a smaller person who often ends up belaying big guys, I love the GriGri. I've had experiences with the first gen Reverso and more recently with an ATC Guide, in which it actually became difficult to hold the weight of a big guy (200ish lbs). The Reverso incident was probably because it had sustained some wear and the braking surfaces were getting less friction; perhaps the same deal more recently with the ATC Guide, but in any case I relish the ability to hold and lower a heavy person without a ton of difficulty.

I'm a healthy person and I'm climbing reasonably well; there's nothing wrong with my grip strength. It's just that heavy dudes are heavy, and I doubt that those heavy guys appreciate the difference in having to catch their falls vs. catching someone of my own weight (130 lbs).

While there's no doubt that misuse of the Grigri can be a serious problem, I'm sorry that the title of this thread goes farther to state with certainty something we don't know. Under the circumstances that's a highly unfortunate step.

Morgan Patterson wrote: Just imagine how much worse it would be without an "auto locking" device being so prevalent...If all those folks only had ATCs just think of how many more noob accidents you'd have! And I will typically request that I am belayed by a grigri and only in rare circumstances will I be belayed by anything but... though most areas I climb have high rockfall potential.

I'm bringin my figure fuckin 8 and using it in rap mode(for a SOFT CATCH) next time bro you choss lover!

bearbreeder wrote:Jim ewing of sterling ropes just had an accident on a grigri Hello all. Jim is stable enough for surgery today so we are waiting for him to go in to get his pelvis and left ankle fixed. It will be a long 6-8 hour surgery. He is currently very comfortabe, having been given Dilaudid for pain and Versed for pre- sedation. From what we've pieced together, he was climbing with Maxine on the Dixon wall at Cayman Brac, fell while working a hard move, stopped momentarily, but then started falling again. Maxine was belaying him with the grigri, noticed it was not stopping him and grabbed the rope, which might very well have saved his life. She sustained minor rope burns on her hand, which have blistered. She is ok but it was traumatic, obviously. Katie Dott and John Haley were amazing. They were climbing nearby, got help, Katie stayed with Maxine in our rented condo overnight until I could fly Maxine to Grand Cayman. Jim was airlifted to Grand Cayman, had the first surgery that night to externally fixate his pelvis for stabiliZation until we could get him to the closest available Level 1 trauma center, which is where we are now, Broward in Fort Lauderdale. We are not sure what happened with the belay system. Jim had her anchored of course; maybe her being pulled somehow when he fell changed the angle of the grigri and it couldn't lock-we don't know. She let got of it but it did not auto-lock as it should have. Thanks so much for all the well-wishes. It helps. Cathy, Jim's wife supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

HELLO, THANKS FOR KEEPING UP

;)

rgold wrote:I don't think this is true. The rope path is nowhere near as "sharp" as an ATC's. Considerable evidence for the low level of friction available with the cam disengaged comes from multiple reports of people pulling back to far on the lever while lowering someone and then not being able to control the descent. Surely, in this situation, their brake hand is in the proper position, and yet they don't have enough friction to hold body weight, much less a climbing fall.

Yep. I had a close call with a Gri Gri awhile ago... I'm always in a quandary on which device to use with a partner who's not that experienced. Had both an ATC and a Gri Gri available. Chose the Gri Gri. Topped out a route, partner went to lower me...and...I plummeted. Imagine I screamed like a small child as that ground loomed up closer and closer under me. Happened fast. When I finally came to a stop, my feet grazed the ground. Was probably 45 or 50 feet. Thought for sure I was going to get very broken. Partner had rope burns on their belay hand but they stopped me. Not sure they ever let the handle loose. Wide open. Very hard to stop.

So...I kinda reevaluated using a Gri Gri a bit. In the heat of battle, I think folks tend to do more of what they are doing. In my case, I think my partner, who was lowering me with the Gri Gri, sort of panicked a bit and just did more of what they were doing: cranked the handle to fully unload the cam. I think its really hard to cognitively recover in time with a Gri Gri. I probably got lucky I didn't crash into the ground (fortunate to have a belayer who was willing to sacrifice their belay hand).

So...ATC...brake not working? Brake harder. Easy. Even use two hands on the belay side. Intuitive. More is better in the heat of battle with this type of device, IMHO.

Tough thread...tough accident. Be safe out there!

Brian in SLC wrote:Not sure they ever let the handle loose. Wide open. Very hard to stop. So...I kinda reevaluated using a Gri Gri a bit. In the heat of battle, I think folks tend to do more of what they are doing. In my case, I think my partner, who was lowering me with the Gri Gri, sort of panicked a bit and just did more of what they were doing: cranked the handle to fully unload the cam. I think its really hard to cognitively recover in time with a Gri Gri.

Yep. Letting go is a negative action and when under duress humans tend to apply positive actions - like pulling down harder on the Gri-gri release lever. Remarkably similar to the driver who mistakenly puts their foot on the gas instead of the brake pedal and then accelerates through the store window as they continue to push harder on the gas, thinking they're on the brake. Or the rappeler with a prusik "safety" that grips the prusik knot harder, preventing it from cinching, as they slide out of control.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. While I know accidents have happened using the grigri - I was dropped in a gym once myself by a person who had rigged it backwards - I also know people who have held very violent falls with them including a near factor 2 fall of 20 feet where the lead climber fell right past the belayer and rope burned the belayer a arm as they passed by the belay.

In the hands of an experienced belayer the grigri is very safe.