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Tips on practicing setting pro

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Ha! You're right about cams, and you aren't the only one who "doesn't know how they work." Cams, I've been fond of saying, are faith-based protection.

That said, people's faith has turned out to be pretty well-founded. At the end of the day, cams are as reliable as nuts, which means that either type of protection has its failure modes and even experts get it wrong and have pieces blow unexpectedly.

I wouldn't delay putting cams on your rack. They are sometimes the best pro you can get, and sometimes the only pro. Cams have made most climbing safer, easier, and quicker than it used to be when we climbed with only nuts. And you had better beware with an all-nut rack: G-rated climbs might be R-rated if you have no cams.

If you are climbing parallel-sided splitters, than cams are close to the only game in town. Plus the placement principles are almost trivial, you know exactly what to place based on the type of hand or finger jam you have. The more featured the rock, the more you have to deal with cams the way you deal with nuts: careful up-close inspection of the placement, choice of the right-sized piece when in fact different sizes are possible, getting proper or at least the best possible orientation, testing both the solidity and resistance to lifting, and making sure the piece will be removable. These nut-like features of cam placement become increasingly critical as the cams get smaller, because small cams have very little expansion range and can easily become worthless after moving.

Because cams are faith-based protection, I think one could argue that it is even more important to include cams in vigorous sessions of ground-school placement and bounce-testing. Nuts can be judged on their apparent mechanical solidity, but cams are good...because they are good, and you have to learn to appreciate when that is and when it isn't, and placing and testing is really the only way to get a sense of it.

Probably the main issue with cam placement has to do with compression. Since you have to assume the cam is going to move a little, you have to be sure that the cam motion won't result in the cams springing totally open and no longer functioning. This means that the vaunted expansion range, especially of larger cams, should be viewed as a safety margin, not a placement range. Each cam is ideal for only a small range of crack sizes, and when you get down to the small cams, really only for a single sized crack. I'd say you should be aiming for about 2/3 compression in most cams; the bigger ones can tolerate a bit less, the smaller ones usually need to be placed as tight as possible with just enough play in the cams to make the cam removable.

Speaking of removable, cams should be placed by retracting the cams and positioning the cam in the crack. Stabbing the cam into the crack and allowing the crack to compress the cams is far more likely to produce a fully-cammed placement that can't be removed.

A second issue with cam placements is flares. Everything gets dicier when the crack flares. If the flare is part of the gross structure of the crack, it is obvious enough, but many non-uniform cracks have small locally-flared sections that are harder to spot. If your cam moves into one of these flares, it will either become much less resistant to fall forces or, if it holds, subject to much higher internal forces that could break it. Careful eyeballing plus a bit of motion-testing to see where the cam might move to is the best defense.

The take-away from all this is that there is, in many if not most cases, very little that is "automatic" about cam placements, they require analysis, thought, and experience (naturally carried out at high speed) just as nuts do, and the sooner you start learning the ins and outs the better.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

rgold, thank you for that. I had to read it twice.

I see exactly what you're saying about needing practice to place cams well. I've also seen in my recent practice with passive pro, places where cams would be great (parallel, smooth sided cracks). Tri-cams have held in these placements when I've jerk-tested them in various directions, but it's obvious that a cam is a more appropriate option. The hexes, of course, were useless in these placements.

It's not that I don't understand how cams work; I do understand the mechanics of the device. That's what scares me about them. However I was very impressed with the Totem cams I had a chance to handle, simply because the mechanical design seems far safer in my eyes. I very much like that applying a load opens the lobes directly vs pulling on the axle and hoping friction holds the lobes enough to active the expansion. Which means when I buy cams, I'll very likely spend the extra money to get Totems. I wish I could afford them now, but they'll have to wait.

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

"I do understand the mechanics of the device. That's what scares me about them. However I was very impressed with the Totem cams I had a chance to handle, simply because the mechanical design seems far safer in my eyes. I very much like that applying a load opens the lobes directly vs pulling on the axle and hoping friction holds the lobes enough to active the expansion. Which means when I buy cams, I'll very likely spend the extra money to get Totems."

Well, unless there is something about Totems (I have used CCH Aliens) that I don't understand, this comment suggests that you do not understand how cams work, since they all work the same way. That is, they are all spring loaded, and the outward force on the cams is somewhere around double the downward force of the pull. By the way, a Tricam will generally not stay in place in a parallel crack once you move past it, unless there is a constriction.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

But the Totems do have an advantage, which is that by loading the cams, the load can be distributed to the cams even when the crack surface is irregular or flared. In the axle-based system, if there is a difference in the compression of the cams, only the most compressed cams will be loaded. (The spring will hold a less-compressed cam against the crack wall, but it won't participate in load-bearing.) With Totems, there is better load-sharing among the cams and so in principle more holding power.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

The Totems I have handled don't have a stem that attaches to the axle, but rather 4 cables that loop to form the point where the sling is attached. These cables run in the opposite direction to the retraction cables fixed to the trigger. When the sling point is loaded, the 4 expansion cables work to pull the lobes outwards. Perhaps Aliens work like this too. I've never handled Aliens.

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

Good to know...Always assumed that Totems were Alien clones.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Totem also makes improved Aliens---called Totem Basic Cams, so the potential confusion is natural. Fixe also makes improved Aliens.

Here's a shot of the Totem cam we're talking about in which the degree of compression and angle of the lobes relative to the stem is different, and so the Totem system has an advantage.



Totem cams also have the significant advantage of having narrower heads than other brands. This makes no difference for splitters, but can make all the difference in the world in irregular placements.
Muscrat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 3,625

I was at the top of Bishop's Terrace, the valley, my first .8 lead, feeling good (although i had gone off route, got a foot stuck in an off route offwidth, etc) when a guide came up having placed 4 pieces (to my 10) and climbed it in tennies. We talked, and he gave me the best advice to date for getting good and comfortable with trad.
"What grade do you follow, or toprope" said he.
"11's", says i.
"What's the difference" he asks, knowingly.
I don't know how to place gear, and i don;t trust it".
SO, he says, and this is a Yosemite valley guide, who has been guiding for 20+ years. "Get down off this rock, and go aid climb".
Best advice i ever got in climbing. Aid teaches you what works, and what does not, how things shift when loaded, and how to trust your gear. Also what falling on gear is like, which really helps get your head around falling on gear.
You can 'fake aid' on a top rope to build confidence, but make sure you are not hogging a line which others might want to really climb. Aid, especially at first, is glacial.
Oh, and you can do it in crappy weather, too!

Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

Go buy a cheap pair of Nordic skis and get your mind off climbing season. Once it warms up you will get your mileage in.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

"Get down off this rock, and go aid climb".

^ +1

Just started doing this myself, but backed up on top rope. A lot of gear to maintain and keep out of your way, but I'm getting more proficient. I should have started this way!

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

Bill, I know to many in CO this is blasphemy, but I don't much care for skiing. I've got a pair of cross-country skis and I'm thankful for every year that goes by where I don't need to use them. Extremities cold; core hot; everywhere damp. No, I don't think so.

Okay, I'll add aid climbing to my list of winter climbing activities. Amanda: if you're reading this, we're aid climbing now too! :D

verticon · · Europe · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 25
rgold wrote:In the axle-based system, if there is a difference in the compression of the cams, only the most compressed cams will be loaded. (The spring will hold a less-compressed cam against the crack wall, but it won't participate in load-bearing.)
Would you care to elaborate ? (IMO all the cams should work the same no matter how compressed they are, because of the constant camming angle construction)
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847
rgold wrote:In the axle-based system, if there is a difference in the compression of the cams, only the most compressed cams will be loaded. (The spring will hold a less-compressed cam against the crack wall, but it won't participate in load-bearing.) With Totems, there is better load-sharing among the cams and so in principle more holding power.
I'm a bit confused by this too.
Can you elaborate +1
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Well, I could be wrong; I haven't thought about this really carefully. What I was thinking was that the loading of the cams the classic setup happens because they can't expand further and of course that friction keeps the whole mess in place. If the placement is irregular enough for, say, one cam to spring further out than the others, I don't think it gets loaded because on that side the load is not forcing the cams to their maximum possible expansion; the more compressed cams have stopped that from happening. If the spring wasn't there I think that cam would just drop back down, and I mean while the device is loaded. I feel that I've seen this with aid pieces in irregular placements; you're hanging in the piece but one of the cams is evidently not engaged.

What I'm saying, if it is accurate, has nothing to do with the logarithmic spiral shape of the cams, which guarantees the same normal force on the wall no matter what the cam position is, if the cam is loaded, but surely not otherwise.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
wivanoff wrote: I agree that there's nothing that inspires confidence like a well set passive piece. I've never climbing in the UK. But, I get the sense from their forums that the majority of climbers there "go to" passive gear first and use cams second. And they use hexes a lot more. Maybe it has to do with using two ropes? In the USA it's opposite. I get the sense that most climbers reach for cams first. And some spurn passive gear. IMO, too many new trad climbers mistakenly think cams are "plug and play". They don't give any real thought to correct placement. It's much better to know how and when to use all the tools.
You are correct about the UK and passive first.

There are various reasons for this, like coastal limestone cracks being full of blobs which mean anything could happen to a cam, and lots of very thin cracks.

One good thing about having got to grips with passive pro first, is that it helps you think about cams in a better way. Leaving out parallel sided cracks on good rock, with we have few of, most cam placements are improved if there is some passive element to the placement that will keep the cam in place during the fall.

Not a bad rule is, if you have the strength to hang on, then consider placing a mix of passive and cams before the crux. This might not be on the crux, as you will be fighting hard, but at some point high enough that no harm will come to you if you fall. The same can be true at belays.

Another is that when it comes to passive, a piece that goes 3 inches backwards into the crack and 3inches down, locks into place and isn't going to come out without your second putting some effort in, will probably survive the push and pull of a fall reasonably well. Whereas a stopper placed near the outside of the crack that lifts out easily might not be still there once you have climbed above it twenty feet.
everbrad · · Orange County · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 10

Totem cams are actually quite different from regular cams. From the Outdoor gear lab:

"The thing that we liked most about these is the innovative thinking that went into the design. Totem Cams make a complete departure from traditional cam design and create something that is new, exciting, and functional.

We liked the increased security in downward flared placements (up to 40 degrees according to Totem's website). We also found the design of the cable system replacing a traditional stem to be interesting. The cables that provide the backbone of the cam, essentially replacing the stem, are attached directly to the lobe and when the unit is weighted actually pull on the lobes, generating a greater outward pull."

read the entire article here: outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing…

Totems however do not make other camminng devices obsolete and appear to be best for aid and tricky placements. And I would not recommend buying totems to start out on since there are clearly disadvantages that the article describes.

I think its great to start out learning on nuts and other passive gear because many leaders simply can't place anything but cams. However not using cams would be like only using a typewriter because you don't understand how a pc works, and going straight to totem cams would be like skipping over learning a pc and getting a smartphone. Baby steps!

To put to plain and simple: A well placed cam will not fail and should not move. There had to be good reason why you're partners didn't like some of your cam placements and there was probably was an easy fix. If they didn't go over both of these points then lets face it, you need some new mentors.

I would highly recommend placing gear for top rope anchors until you are comfortable with your placements (just have someone with some know how check your anchors before climbing on them or take a class). Then follow a bit, do some mock leads, and when your ready to set off on your own just keep the grade mellow, about 2 grades less than your comfort zone should do it but by attention to style as well (grade can easily be meaningless if you don't have the proper technique). And if you can set good anchors well guess what? You're ready for multi-pitch. Oh, and buy some d**n cams when they go on sale, fear not! I really wish I was climbing instead of writing this book, my apologies in advance!

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Youre fine going straight to totems

The only disadvantage other than a bit of bulkiness is that its not passively rates

But then neither were the old friends, metoliuses, aliens, etc ...

Totems will generally work as well as any other cam in the sizes they are available

I own and use a full set, as well as many other cams

;)

Some gear

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

A second vote for going straight to Totems. Cams are expensive, and more and more people think that Totems are actually the best. Better holding power, better performance in flares, equal or narrower head width than the competition, and, I think especially important, they walk less.

The Outdoor Gear Lab review linked above gives 5 out of 5 stars and mentions two "drawbacks." I'm quoting as-is in spite of the awkward language.

Drawback #1:

Outdoorgearlab wrote:...a very flexible cam body that, while useful in horizontal placements and helps cut down on walking, actually makes the pieces harder to place. They have a tendency to bend and flex at inopportune times. It is also unclear, given that we only tested the cams for months and not years, whether long-term use will increase the flexibility of the cam body, leaving it essentially without structure.
Part of the explanation for this perspective comes from what comes next:

Outdoorgearlab wrote:...he tends to frantically place gear, sometimes jamming the cams in without hardly pulling the trigger…just sort of shoving it in there. He found that the floppy cam body design seriously inhibited his ability to place these pieces, and thus his ability to climb.
Conclusion: if you place gear frantically by just jamming it in there, Totem cams are probably not the best choice. If you learn to control your emotions and place gear properly, then their flexibility will not be an issue as far as I can tell. And after several years of use, I haven't noticed any loss of "structure," whatever that means.

Drawback #2:
Outdoorgearlab wrote:Another drawback is that these cams rack bulky. The sling is oriented in such a way that the widest parts of the cam stack up next to each other. U-stem cam designs, as in the Metolius Supercam, are slung in such a way that the width of U-stems are aligned parallel to each other and do not create a "pile-up" of wide cam stems. This is okay when free climbing with a relatively small rack. If you are aid climbing with a big rack, there is no way you could carry 3-4 sets of these without having a massive clump of gear.
Fair enough if you are toting a big aid rack. Not an issue for free-climbing in my experience.

The one type of situation I think Totem cams might not be ideal for is parallel-sided sandstone splitters. The narrow heads confer no advantage, the cams seem to me to be a little thinner than my Camalots (and of course a lot thinner than Metolius Fat Cams), and the extra forces exerted on the walls might just result in deeper grooving.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

There is no "best" ... All the top cams have their own advantages

You need a second set of cams in addition to the totems as they dont go small or big enough for a full range from tips to offwidth

The "too floopy" excuse that outdoorgearlab gives is bullshiet

The aliens are even more floppy, and folks use em just fine

One "advantage" of the camalots, dragons and friends for beginners is that they are passively rated so if the cam walks into or is placed in a constriction its more forgiving

There enough folks on MP who have umbrellaed their cams, somtimes resulting in accidents

Regardless you can learn on any decent cam and the totems are better than the old powercams or friends that many folks here learned on

One bad habit that i do find myself doing is not extending the totems as much as say camalots or dragons as they are very resistant to walking ... this doesnt help rope drag or reducing the friction(and real world impact forces), which extending does

;)

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Aid climbing is not a bad idea for learning how to get better with placements and such. But it has it's limitations. Dont think that every piece that held your weight on aid would hold on a fall--they wont. I have been on plenty of hardish aid pitches where every placement seemed perfectly fine while I was on the piece, but I was on crap rated for 2-3kN, or on busted out heads so I knew if I fell I was going to zipper a few pieces.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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