Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

RockinOut wrote: Doesn't take much of a bend to hold body weight or catch a fall. You don't need to hold the rope straight down to lock off a tube device, in fact you can be fairly close to perpendicular to the device for before it starts to feed. I think those people that drop the climber while lowering them with a gri gri are relying on the device itself and not their brake hand, controlling the rate of descent solely with the cam in the device. I've lowered people with the gri gri wide open using it as a tube device. As long as you have a solid hand on the brake they aren't going anywhere.

This is not accurate. When tube devices are loaded, even slightly, the device and the biner get sucked together playing an important role in the friction, even if the brake is only at 90 degrees relative to the climber rope. With a gri gri, the biner plays no role in the friction. Some people say that a gri gri with the brake lever wide open is equal to having an atc. This is just plain false. Sure, you may have lowered people successfully with the brake lever completely open. Several factors make this possible in many situation.

I agree with your comment that the brake hand should play an important part when lowering. But, to claim a gri gri wide open is using it as a tube device is wrong. The available friction is quite different.

Greg D wrote: This is not accurate. When tube devices are loaded, even slightly, the device and the biner get sucked together playing an important role in the friction, even if the brake is only at 90 degrees relative to the climber rope. With a gri gri, the biner plays no role in the friction. Some people say that a gri gri with the brake lever wide open is equal to having an atc. This is just plain false. Sure, you may have lowered people successfully with the brake lever completely open. Several factors make this possible in many situation. I agree with your comment that the brake hand should play an important part when lowering. But, to claim a gri gri wide open is using is as a tube device is wrong. The available friction is quite different.

I tend to believe this as I've tested the friction with a Grigri loaded backwards (which should have the same bend)and found it inadequate.

teece303 wrote:The grigri puts a sharp enough bend in the rope: if you are using it correctly, it will catch falls, regardless of whether or not the cam engages. (But if you're using it correctly, the cam will engage >99% of the time, and when it doesn't, you'll be fine because you have your brake hand on the rope, locked off).

exactly... the issue ends there. If your brake hand isn't on the rope well... how can you expect any device to work.

The gentle bends through a Grigri definitely will NOT stop a fall if the cam isn't engaged, any more than the 180-degree bend at the top-piece carabiner does.

When I was first learning to use a Grigri I dropped someone (not to the ground, fortunately) by holding too tightly with my guide hand, an old habit I had acquired from "cushioning" short trad falls. It was shocking how easy it was to completely deactivate the device. I'm generally fairly mechanically inclined, but this effect took me totally by surprise.

Obviously you can't belay with a Grigri without touching the climber's strand of the rope, so it's a matter of understanding how the device works and using it accordingly.

J Achey wrote:The gentle bends through a Grigri definitely will NOT stop a fall if the cam isn't engaged, any more than the 180-degree bend at the top-piece carabiner does. When I was first learning to use a Grigri I dropped someone (not to the ground, fortunately) by holding too tightly with my guide hand, an old habit I had acquired from "cushioning" short trad falls. It was shocking how easy it was to completely deactivate the device. I'm generally fairly mechanically inclined, but this effect took me totally by surprise. Obviously you can't belay with a Grigri without touching the climber's strand of the rope, so it's a matter of understanding how the device works and using it accordingly.

Again with the disclaimer that I don't use a Grigri (but am thinking about getting one for sport climbing) wouldn't this depend somewhat on rope diameter and belay technique? I ask the question since there are some people saying in this thread that you can lower with an unlocked Grigri with no difficulty which means there must be some force multiplier effect. But it would clearly be greater with a fat rope and locking off with the brake hand low and to the back. (In that case the brake strand runs across the hip and picks up quite a bit of additional friction there).

Emil Briggs wrote: Again with the disclaimer that I don't use a Grigri (but am thinking about getting one for sport climbing) wouldn't this depend somewhat on rope diameter and belay technique? I ask the question since there are some people saying in this thread that you can lower with an unlocked Grigri with no difficulty which means there must be some force multiplier effect. But it would clearly be greater with a fat rope and locking off with the brake hand low and to the back. (In that case the brake strand runs across the hip and picks up quite a bit of additional friction there).

Hey Emil, the Grigri friction is dependent on the rope diameter and on how new and slick the rope is too. Belay position would probably affect it too as does friction from other sources along the rope path. But I can tell you that I've tried using a Grigri threaded backwards (backed up, of course; specifically to test the statement that a backwards Grigri would behave like an ATC in the absence of the cam) and I did not feel like there was sufficient friction to arrest a fall.

csproul wrote: Hey Emil, the Grigri friction is dependent on the rope diameter and on how new and slick the rope is too. Belay position would probably affect it too as does friction from other sources along the rope path. But I can tell you that I've tried using a Grigri threaded backwards (backed up, of course; specifically to test the statement that a backwards Grigri would behave like an ATC in the absence of the cam) and I did not feel like there was sufficient friction to arrest a fall.

OK so enough friction for lowering but not enough to hold a fall. Makes me want to think about another option for sport climbing. Not that I sport climb all that much but belaying someone with an ATC while they work a route can wear on you a bit so I was thinking of a Grigri for that purpose.

Emil Briggs wrote: OK so enough friction for lowering but not enough to hold a fall. Makes me want to think about another option for sport climbing.

Why would you come to that conclusion? csproul specifically was testing the Gri-gri threaded *backwards* when he said not enough friction to hold a fall.
The Gri-gri is an excellent device for working sport routes for precisely the reason you mentioned in the second half of your post.

Marc801 wrote: Why would you come to that conclusion? csproul specifically was testing the Gri-gri threaded *backwards* when he said not enough friction to hold a fall. The Gri-gri is an excellent device for working sport routes for precisely the reason you mentioned in the second half of your post.

Well I thought he was also saying that the friction would be the same (and insufficient to hold a fall) even when threaded properly if the cam does not engage. That's what I'm concerned about. I understand that it's a low probability event for the cam to fail to engage but my current reflexes are pretty ingrained after catching hundreds of falls with tube style devices. I'm not sure I would always let go of the climber side of the rope with my non brake hand with a Grigri so an autolocking device where that didn't matter might be a better choice for me personally.

Emil Briggs wrote: Well I thought he was also saying that the friction would be the same (and insufficient to hold a fall) even when threaded properly if the cam does not engage. That's what I'm concerned about. I understand that it's a low probability event for the cam to fail to engage but my current reflexes are pretty ingrained after catching hundreds of falls with tube style devices. I'm not sure I would always let go of the climber side of the rope with my non brake hand with a Grigri so an autolocking device where that didn't matter might be a better choice for me personally.

It is a bit of an assumption that a backwards Grigri would behave the same as a properly threaded Grigri with the cam not functioning, but it seems like a reasonable assumption to me. The Grigri is a great device for sport climbing, but you must take the time to learn to use it properly. Not hard, just a bit different.

Keep your brake hand on just as you would for an ATC. It's not hard to train yourself to let go of the opposite hand. I often do so with an ATC too, either to push off of the rock in front of me or to put both hands on the brake strand.

Emil Briggs wrote: Well I thought he was also saying that the friction would be the same (and insufficient to hold a fall) even when threaded properly if the cam does not engage. That's what I'm concerned about. I understand that it's a low probability event for the cam to fail to engage but my current reflexes are pretty ingrained after catching hundreds of falls with tube style devices. I'm not sure I would always let go of the climber side of the rope with my non brake hand with a Grigri so an autolocking device where that didn't matter might be a better choice for me personally.

Anyone who's caught hundreds on falls on an ATC is not likely to grip the rope so hard with the non-brake hand (i.e. the user error that started this whole thread) that they disable a properly threaded Grigri. Emil, your fears are groundless IMO.

J. Albers wrote: Anybody who makes a statement like this is very hard to take seriously. Sigh. Just because you have witnessed a slew of bad belayer errors doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. How you could think that witnessing something equates to understanding is a weird way to view the world.

I, and several others who've posted, understand it quite well.

If you don't believe it happens, GO TEST IT. Otherwise, it's YOU who is speaking out of ignorance.

J. Albers wrote: If John had simply made a pleasantly worded message stating that care needs to be exercised when using a gri-gri, then he would have likely elicited a shrug and nod from most folks. Instead, John made a black and white decree as a PSA that I wouldn't want a newb listening too. And the fact that he is an admin just makes it more annoying because there are probably folks thinking that he is an authority, which he clearly is not.

"Oh, J. Albers, you sweetheart, don't let your partner deck by grabbing the climbers-strand." There, that do it for you?

Pleasantly worded messages get ignored.

Pray tell, who is an authority on this, J. Albers? Someone who's never experienced it? Or someone who has? Someone who's never seen it or spoken to people who've lived through it, or someone who has? Someone who's never tested it, or someone who has?

For what it's worth, I once dropped someone in the gym by gripping the climber's end of the rope too hard when learning to lead belay with a grigri. I got a nice little rope burn on my left hand and the climber decked (somewhat slowly) without the grigri ever engaging.

Now, the climber was only two clips up, and I like to think that if it had been a longer fall, the cam would have eventually engaged as he picked up more speed. (He probably would have ended up about 2 feet off the ground if all had gone according to plan, so who knows what would have happened if he was 60 feet up.) That said, it was fucking horrible, scary, and painful (everyone was alright), and I'm VERY careful not to grab the climber's end of the rope when catching a fall.

I don't mean to wade into this ridiculous thread, but since I have some first-hand experience, I thought I'd let everyone know that it is, indeed, possible. No one ever told me this was an issue before I started learning to belay with a grigri, and I wish someone had... And, to answer another post above, I had caught hundreds of whippers with an ATC at that point (had been climbing about 5 years).

John Byrnes wrote: "Oh, J. Albers, you sweetheart, don't let your partner deck by grabbing the climbers-strand." There, that do it for you? Pleasantly worded messages get ignored. Pray tell, who is an authority on this, J. Albers? Someone who's never experienced it? Or someone who has? Someone who's never seen it or spoken to people who've lived through it, or someone who has? Someone who's never tested it, or someone who has?

Sheesh. Can you really only see things in a binary fashion? Either you flame your words in there or you sweetheart them? Again, your inability to find a happy medium in your words or message make you hard to take seriously.

And like I said before, just because you participate or watch something occur doesn't make your opinion worthy of consideration. A well-thought out argument that carefully considers the gray area of the issue at hand makes your opinion worthy of consideration. Do that and I will consider your ideas. You have not done this. You have just screamed "fire!!" with little regard for the details of when your message applies and when it does not.

Okay, I'm back from skiing and I see this thread has attracted a lot of attention.

GOOD.

I will semi-apologize for the lack of "pleasantness" in my first post. Having lived through an accident of this type, and witnessed others, I was very emotional to hear it had happened to a friend of mine. I was devastated that it was his daughter that dropped him. Her recovery will be as difficult as her father's.

However, my coarse delivery did have the desired effect. Which is why I'm not completely apologizing. Pleasantly worded messages get ignored by people who really don't want to believe it's true. Sometimes you just gotta get in someone's face.

I have confirmed, via climbers that were there, that the Gri-gri was loaded correctly. It was a new, thin rope and a Gri-gri 2.

WHY do I think this happens far too often? Because if one climber, me, is aware of 6 incidents occurring in 4 years, how many are actually happening out there? Almost-injury-accidents of this type are rarely reported, but happen a lot more frequently.

The fact that so many posters DENY that this is a problem, is a problem.

If you still don't believe it, go test it. I'm sure you can figure out how to do that safely. Wear gloves.

Like many other who have posted, I love my Gri-gris. They are my go-to device for sport climbing, bolting and route-setting. But they are not fool-proof and the more people I can make aware of this failure-mode, the safer we all will be.

Now that I'm aware that the Gri-gri (and Cinch) can fail this way, I am a safer belayer. I have made, and will continue to make, more belayers aware. Certainly, everyone who belays ME will be made aware!

This threads just reinforces my opinion that many climbers coming out of gyms (where GRi-Gris must usually be used) have very poor skills about anything. Shit, if people can't operate a Gri-Gri correctly, then I subscribe to the notion that they are ignorant and probably stupid. My following comment will stir the hornet's nest, but really before the advent of climbing gym proliferation, the skill level of climbers in general was much higher. This entire thread seems to prove my point. Gym environment, loud music, distractions everywhere and no opportunity for improving judgement skills and lots of pretty plastic holds for th 5.12 'gym' climber.Sure am glad you can't 'learn' mountain biking in a gym.

Tradster wrote:This threads just reinforces my opinion that many climbers coming out of gyms (where GRi-Gris must usually be used) have very poor skills about anything. Shit, if people can't operate a Gri-Gri correctly, then I subscribe to the notion that they are ignorant and probably stupid. My following comment will stir the hornet's nest, but really before the advent of climbing gym proliferation, the skill level of climbers in general was much higher. This entire thread seems to prove my point. Gym environment, loud music, distractions everywhere and no opportunity for improving judgement skills and lots of pretty plastic holds for th 5.12 'gym' climber.Sure am glad you can't 'learn' mountain biking in a gym.

What gyms are you climbing in? Out of the dozen+ gyms I've climbed in, only one has required the use of a Grigri.

I also think you need to substitute "belayer" for the word "climber" in your statement. Since gym climbing has become common, the skill level of climbers (at least in terms of difficulty) has has clearly gone up. Belayers?....maybe not.

csproul wrote: What gyms are you climbing in? Out of the dozen+ gyms I've climbed in, only one has required the use of a Grigri. I also think you need to substitute "belayer" for the word "climber" in your statement. Since gym climbing has become common, the skill level of climbers has has clearly gone up. Belayers?....maybe not.

Skill level hasn't gone up at all. I've climbed for 40 years and that really isn't true. I see climbers drink beer while belaying, not using or knowing common verbal or physical signals for communicating, putting too much slack in the rope. This whole thread is about people dropping their leader because they don't use a simple piece of gear correctly. More climbers doesn't equate with better skill levels. Belayer is another word for climber. Gyms I've been to in Phoenix have required Gri-Gris in my experience, but I haven't been to every gym there is.

As I said its just an opinion, but I'm not too impressed with the newbies coming out of the gym environment. Too much attitude and not enough knowledge.

Tradster wrote: Skill level hasn't gone up at all. I've climbed for 40 years and that really isn't true. I see climbers drink beer while belaying, not using or knowing common verbal or physical signals for communicating, putting too much slack in the rope. This whole thread is about people dropping their leader because they don't use a simple piece of gear correctly. More climbers doesn't equate with better skill levels. Belayer is another word for climber. Gyms I've been to in Phoenix have required Gri-Gris in my experience, but I haven't been to every gym there is. As I said its just an opinion, but I'm not too impressed with the newbies coming out of the gym environment. Too much attitude and not enough knowledge.

You can't argue that there are more climbers coming out of gyms that are able to climb harder routes than ever before, on bolts and on gear. If you deny that you clearly have your head in the sand (and probably missed all of the 15 year olds warming up on your project). It's unfortunate that you're "unimpressed" with the youth coming out of gyms today, because there really are a lot of impressive climbers coming out of the gym. Unfortunately, there is a lot more to being a good climber than climbing difficulty and these are the skills that are difficult/impossible to learn in the gym. But I did stupid shit and had poor judgement when I started climbing 20+ years ago too and so did a lot of climbers back then. There's just more of them around now, they're climbing harder, and not learning those "other" skills nearly as fast as they're learning to climb hard.