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Ice Climbing Without Ropes

Original Post
Gone Climbin' · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 15
Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

Sure people solo ice regularly. I have done so in the past - not so much now. That said if the guy was making the comment "I'm committed now" he may have been new soling ice. Which in that case you were probably smart not to hang out with your kids. I probably have been nervous as well after hearing that comment.

roger fritz · · Rockford, IL · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 60

Ever since the time I had a free soloist fall in front of me and bounce down the next cliff line, I walk away from them too. Smart move to not subject your children to the aftermath of a fall!

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166

Soloing on 3rd class, 4th class, steep snow, ice or rock (and even roped climbing TR,PG13,R,X), like most things, exists on a spectrum, and is an individual decision. I occasionally solo both rock and ice, but I stick to things that I am exceedingly confident on, when conditions are good, and when I feel good - if anything seems off, I don't go (admittedly in my pre-amygdala years that wasn't always the case and I had a close call or two - that makes post-amygdala me shudder and grateful for pulling through).

Soloing, if done in a disciplined manner, can be a nice way to get some mileage in, move quickly, competently and avoid the problem of conflicting schedules. It is not something to be done for others, although sharing the experience is okay in my opinion.

Depending on the conditions, equipment (specifically leashed or leashless), and ability (physical and mental) of the climber, soloing ice can be relatively less risky than soloing rock (in my opinion). A leashed ice climber, on solid ice, burying his or her tools with each placement should be somewhat protected from a variety of mishaps and objective hazards that the rock-soloist is not protected from in any way.

Like all things climbing, if you don't fall, it doesn't matter.

All of that said, if you're asking yourself whether you should start soloing, or if you harbor any doubt, DON'T - you're playing for all the marbles with each move/placement/hold/rockfall/icefall and a million other variables which you can't possibly control. It is not a game to be taken lightly.

The climber in the OP quipping that he's "committed now" is either incredibly competent, joking with his buds and out for a good time; or incredibly incompetent and doesn't belong there. It'd be impossible for me to render an opinion as to which unless I knew the climber, or I was there to witness it.

Climbing (in all forms) is dangerous.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166

Oh and more thing. I've been more comfortable in the presence of some 5.10 soloists than in the company of some 5.4 leaders (even some top-ropers for that matter). It all comes down to the individual, not the medium.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Greg Egbert wrote: I have 4 dependents, a mortgage, and a job. I definitely have no plans to solo now or in the future - on rock or ice. I err on the side of caution in all things I do and my cautious side thought the situation in the original post looked a little scary. Your point about playing with all the marbles makes me wonder why anyone would solo when so much is out of their control.
I think you have missed the broader point I was trying to make. And that is that climbing is always dangerous. How dangerous? Well that depends on a variety of circumstances - only one of which is whether or not you have the protection of a rope. For instance, I have seen a lot of TR setups I would be more scared to weight than I would be soloing a hundred feet of WI2. The competency of the climber (both technical and physical), and the relative type/difficulty of the terrain are far more important factors (at least in my opinion) than the rope is.

It is fine that you decided to walk away, but I don't think it is your place (or anyone's for that matter) to tell an individual how safe, in your opinion, they need to be. Maybe the climber from your OP was safer on that terrain than you are roped-up on exposed 4th class, maybe not - either way, it's not your right to judge, your right is only to walk away.

Climbing in any form, with any margin of safety (or not) is an individual decision. I have 2.5 dependents (second boy due in 31 days), etc. - if you always err to the side of caution, then (and I'm being sincere here) you should probably give up climbing in general, because simply having a rope will not keep you safe, only knowledge and ability can do that. And even those can fail anyone at any time.

I'm going to try to resist the urge to argue further. This conversation would be far more appropriate (and definitely more fun) over a couple PBRs and a campfire. It's also an old, well-discussed topic; poring over the MP forum archives related to the topic will provide you with a great deal of entertainment, but most-likely no answers. The fundamental question is whether or not a person believes that anyone (or any group of people for that matter) has the right to force an individual to do anything or not.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Greg Egbert wrote: I didn't judge. I just asked a question. I get that climbing is dangerous in any form. Some more than others. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and believe it is irrational to solo. By the way you contradicted yourself. In your first post you told me not to solo because it is dangerous and now you're saying no one has the right to tell someone how safe they need to be. It was a simple question in the OP. I got my answer. No need to has it out over PBRs. Who drinks that shit anyway?
I think you actually did judge. Even though your original post was technically in the form of a question your bias was apparent. What also seems to be apparent is your lack of climbing knowledge and experience. But if your goal was to drum up some drama during a slow time of year then you have chosen a well proven topic.
Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989

Considering how much of a crapshoot ice pro can be (and necessary the running it out can be due to the time/stance/strength required to place it), I've never found much difference between the leading mental space and the soloing mental space. Basically, if I don't feel like I could solo a route, I'll only toprope it.

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Greg Egbert wrote: I didn't judge. I just asked a question. I get that climbing is dangerous in any form. Some more than others. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are and believe it is irrational to solo. By the way you contradicted yourself. In your first post you told me not to solo because it is dangerous and now you're saying no one has the right to tell someone how safe they need to be. It was a simple question in the OP. I got my answer. No need to has it out over PBRs. Who drinks that shit anyway?
You did judge, and you did it again here "[I] believe it is irrational to solo." Further, it is implicit in your question that you think somebody ought to (I paraphrase here) "Just tell those silly soloists to knock it off and come over here and do the safe climbing with me."

If it is irrational to solo, then, by your logic, it is irrational to get out of bed in the morning (because it's on the spectrum of risky behavior) - and, for that matter, a "risk-free" (if that is to be the logical basis for rationality) life is impossible. You will stop having risk in your life the minute you breathe your last, until then, it's all about managing the risks you choose to take and the risks circumstance provides you. Even if you respond by pointing out that, "of course life is inherently risky, but we shouldn't take unnecessary risks." - your logical basis would not allow you to climb, because it is an inherently (in any form) risky, and in virtually all circumstances, unnecessary, activity.

Your very participation in the sport necessarily condones soloing, because you are choosing to take unnecessary risk that you believe to be acceptable for you. Telling others that they cannot (or should not) be able to make the same decision for themselves (while you do), is, at best, inconsistent and at worst, hypocritical and narcissistic.

I did not contradict myself, I offered advice...about how to make the decision. Inherent in that, is that it is indeed, the individual's decision whether or not to solo. EDIT TO ADD: Looking back at my post I didn't make my point clear enough, I was trying to say the very existence of the question "whether or not to start soloing?" is evidence that an individual is not ready to do so safely...I apologize for being unclear.

And I guess to Eric's point, climbers drink PBR, that's who.
Andy Novak · · Bailey, CO · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 370
Greg Egbert wrote: You must have skills beyond me to read my climbing ability and experience through a few words in a post. Just asked a question.
I seem to have Eric's ability too. OH, and I drink a PBR after I "on-sight top rope" 5.9. Righteous!
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Andy Novak wrote: I seem to have Eric's ability too. OH, and I drink a PBR after I "on-sight top rope" 5.9. Righteous!
I'll often slam a half-can as a "precovery" drink in preparation for my hardest redpoints - the stuff is magical.
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Greg Egbert wrote:I think it is only fair to admit you told me not to get into soloing then told me not to tell anyone how to climb - a contradiction.
I don't. I was using the general "you" at that moment (as in "you who are reading this"), not the specific you (Greg Egbert) - damn the fuzzy second person pronoun! And I was making a point about I how I think the existence of any question about whether or not to solo indicates that one isn't competent to take up the activity...as I later clarified. That said incompetents are free to play the game.

It is interesting that you feel I owe you some admission about a simple misspeak, but that you don't feel obligated to admit that your entire worldview (again I paraphrase) "I always err on the side of caution. I am a climber." is completely inconsistent from a logical standpoint. I think revisiting your premises might be a good idea for you, the Greg Egbert you, that is.
Dave Lynch · · Saint Croix Falls, WI · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 515

My two cents: Many climbers solo ice. I don't think its anywhere near 90%. I was friends with or knew about 35 avid ice climbers when I lived in Alaska and I know of two others and myself who soloed on a regular basis.

I believe there are good arguments for both sides as to which is "easier" or "safer" - soloing rock or ice. I feel more confident on ice, but there are more objective hazards too.

I disagree with the statement Seth Kane made.

Seth Kane wrote: agreed. You don't ever lead an ice climb that you think you're going to or even might fall off, so I think it's much more common for experienced ice climbers to be soloing near or at their lead limit then it is for experienced rock climbers.
I consider myself an experienced ice climber and if i never lead an ice climb I thought I might fall off of I would never climb a multi pitch route. You don't know what the next pitch is going to bring and thats why multi pitch ice climbs have always been my favorite. Sometimes you just have to hang it out there. I've lead pithes I would never consider soloing. I've had friends fall on lead and not get hurt. (the stubby held for one of them) Routes/pitches change throughout the season. I climbed the same WI3 one year and it was easily WI4 the next, much more sustained and way more vertical.

I knew someone would whip out the "you're obviously a noob" comment. Heh heh. Always gotta be at least one hater on a long post.

Good post Greg Egbert, and good choice taking the kids out of that situation.
Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989

I suppose my statement requires a little clarification, since Seth lumped more on top of it:
The single-pitch, pure-ice leading mental space is very similar to the single-pitch, pure-ice soloing mental space. In a multi-pitch situation, the stakes are necessarily higher, but the consequences of blowing a single screw on lead 2 pitches up are much more survivable than on the first pitch.
This is coming from a pretty limited point of view; I've only led up to WI3, but I've also soloed up to that level. Basically, I feel that the things that would cause me to fall on a solo of that difficulty would also prevent me from protecting it, so they're basically the same thing.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Ice is vwerwey scawrey....

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Greg Egbert wrote:I do all those little things that make me confident I will be able to climb something and return to the ground safely.
And, generally speaking, so do soloists...they're not heading up intending not to come back, they're just much more comfortable and confident than you are. It is their belief that their ability will keep them safe, just like it is your belief that your ability will keep you safe - they just have a higher belief (rightly or wrongly) in their ability than you do.

The sport of climbing is a big tent, and climbers take a wide variety of risks, both in degree and type.

Is me soloing a 100 foot WI2 more sketchy than me leading a 100 foot 5.11R/X? Absolutely not - I am wildly more likely to have a bad consequence in the second situation, even though I have a rope.

And that's my point. The rope is but one tiny (almost irrelevant) factor in deciding how safe a climber climbing something is. The climber (and his or her attendant technical and physical, skills and abilities), and the terrain are much more important factors than the rope.

To the point others have brought up about you displaying a lack of knowledge about climbing, I have to agree with them (although deriding you for being a noob is a little much in my opinion). The fact that you don't grasp just how much bigger factors terrain and climber are, than simply being tied-in to a rope, shows your lack of experience and knowledge.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Greg Egbert wrote: You must have skills beyond me to read my climbing ability and experience through a few words in a post. Just asked a question.
Didn't have to read further then your subject line to make the determination.
James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
Greg Egbert wrote: When did I say that terrain and climber are not important? When did I say that the rope was the only factor? You're judging me based on the fact that I prefer to use a rope? You're assuming I have no knowledge and experience because I prefer to use a rope? Get real. Stop judging. Keep soloing and let Darwin sorts things out.
I hold my opinion based on the fact that you appear to think it is the rope that keeps you safe. Not the knowledge, of how, when and why to use one or not. Just because you can't conceive of someone having enough ability to make soloing WI5 safer for that individual than you leading 5.9 sport, doesn't mean it can't be the case.

It's pretty obvious that you have virtually no understanding about the topic you are discussing. Not because you choose to climb with a rope, but because you appear to think that you are always safer using one than someone who doesn't.

And by the way, thanks for insinuating that you hope I die, that's real classy. I guess my 17.5 years as a climber don't make me more knowledgeable about how, when and/or why to implement certain safety systems than someone with 2 years of experience. Nor does the fact that I soloed more pitches this year than you appear to have climbed based on your tick list. Nor does the fact that I literally climbed 10 times as many pitches as you this year based on that same information. You're right Greg, you are safer than me, you do know more about how to climb and keep yourself safe than I do. Here's an idea, why don't you grow up and understand that your casual participation in this sport doesn't qualify you to pass an iota of judgement on any of us for whom this sport is more than just our latest excuse to stop by REI and pick up the newest copy of Outside Magazine. Or better yet, maybe be respectful of the people who have been doing this a lot longer and a lot better than you, and realize that they know a hell of a lot more about it than you do...maybe you could learn something. As far as Darwin goes, I'll take my chances, if I didn't think 6 months from now you'd be on to paddle-boarding or whatever hip new outdoor activity is all the rage this summer, I'd be willing to bet Darwin would get you first.
iceman777 · · Colorado Springs · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 60

Cmon ! Don't you two realize arguing on the Internet is like running in theSpecial Olympics

Even if you win your still a fucking retard !

So let's give it a rest huh .

James Schroeder · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined May 2002 · Points: 3,166
iceman777 wrote:Cmon ! Don't you two realize arguing on the Internet is like running in theSpecial Olympics Even if you win your still a fucking retard ! So let's give it a rest huh .
Haha! I'm home sick with the influenza and resulting 104 degree fever! This is all I have to keep my peeling onion entertained, don't take it away from me!
Xam · · Boulder, Co · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 76

I would kindly ask for you to stop misusing the concept of darwinism to make your point. Since you both stated you have kids, the relevant heritable biological traits have already passed to the next generation and natural selection does not really apply. Plus, unless choice of climbing protection is a inheritable trait tied to a genetic mutation, natural selection doesn't really make sense in this case in the first place.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Midwest
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