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Hands go numb on the ice

punchbox22 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 0
Dave Bn wrote:Sounds like your girl has Raynauds, a disorder in which the blood vessels over-react to cold temperatures by constricting causing the hands to go numb and take a long time to regain feeling. I've had this problem for years and just this year solved it through a combination of acupuncture to improve circulation and Murray's Method to retrain the hands to react to changes in body temp differently. I just finished doing Murray's Method. It was a pain in the ass, but it worked. wildernessmedicinenewslette…
How many times did you do the Murray's Method? I know it says it takes around 50 rounds. Did you do 5 times a day on ten different days? I'm looking into trying it but there is no info on it besides the link that you posted. Sent you a PM. Thanks a lot.
James Sweeney · · Roselle Park, NJ · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 30

Medic (and others with hand issues),

Go to Home Depot and get some disposable nitrile work gloves (or something similar) and wear them under whatever gloves you wear while climbing. You can't take them off though and expose your wet hands to the cold. It's what we do on colder days when we know our leather work gloves will be getting wet.

You could also take your girlfriend to the Bozeman Ice Fest because it looks like the women there got their technique dialed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJVj4_mVoY

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

Go leashless with modern easy-to-hang-onto tools, and have her drop a hand and shake it out just a bit before EVERY move. Place tool, drop hand, grab tool and step up. Repeat.

wisam · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 60

Biggest thing for me is to get the blood flowing and heart pumping for 10-20 mins before climbing. If the approach is short, go for a quick hike while layered up. Then, get straight to climbing, no standing around before the first climb.

If I'm just doing some top rope climbing and the approach is short, I'll wear a heavy mitt like OR alti's for the first couple laps using leashes so I don't have to over grip through the thick mitts. Normally leashes= cold hands, but they do allow u to use a very thick mitt without having to over grip which actually helps me if I'm doing top rope laps somewhere and don't have a long approach to get the blood flowing first.

122Mariya · · Arroyo Seco, NM · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 5

I've had trouble with this too and for me what works is staying well hydrated and a bit of an approach. Wearing mitts with warmers over my gloves while belaying helps. I mostly have issues with my feet and figured out that a thin neoprene bootie (the kind for kayaking) over a wool sock works wonders for me so maybe she could try some thin neoprene gloves under a warmer glove? Good luck!

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

As difficult as it may be, leave the alcohol behind. No Hot Jack in the thermos, zero. Alcohol, even one glass/cup will start the vasodilation cascade and your body will start to lose heat. While you think you may be warming up by taking a shot, it's actually just the skin (at first) that feels warm. In other words, you are feeling artificially warm (for just a bit). While coffee has, to some degree, the same effect, I ignore that factoid and have 2-4 cups before heading out. I do stay away from it during the day...I have a legendary tolerance for cold (but not heat = death, or worse), I just get too buzzed on too much coffee.

For you uber-cold tolerators & expeditioners, careful with gulping a cup of Jack or other high octane stuff when the temps are in single digits & esp. if below that. If it's 50 below, so is your adult beverage (if it's sitting in the snow or away from a heat source ) and depending on the alcohol strength, it will remain in liquid form at lower temperatures than you might think. It's still be in liquid form so one might automagically think: "Geez, I need a swig of that". Taking a drink of a -50 below zero degree liquid is something your esophagus just doesn't like, as in instant deep freeze. Yes, it can kill you; any working winter cowboy can tell you stories about this (happening to others). It can sort of get past your tongue & mouth w/o damage but once it hits that thin tissue esophagus, it's another story.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

First of all, if it's 50 below, I'm not climbing!

And while your physiology may be correct re alcohol and vasodilation, ice climbers in general tend to generate a lot of body heat. Climbing can be hard work (we take the belay jacket off to climb...right?), so core heat is not in short supply. Peripheral circulation on the other hand (get it...hand? rimshot) is often diminished. Hence the cold hands and feet. So, for my money, bring on the booze. In moderation, OF COURSE.

YMMV; I see you're in Utah, a state not often associated with alcohol consumption. NTTAWWT.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Gunkiemike,

I take your point re: not climbing at 50 below (although I've been caught high up unintentionally when it got even colder). The ice quality sucks anyway. My point was prompted by someone saying something like "don't forget the [whatever alcohol] in the thermos"]. Whether he was kidding or not is beside the point.

I just thought I'd take the opportunity to point out something that may not be obvious to others: ultra cold alcohol sure looks good but may not be the best time for a drink. (It's not the alcohol that gets you, it's obviously the temperature of the liquid. Other negative effects of drinking alcohol in cold weather aside, put a flask in yee parka for a warmer nip).

Funny re: my living in Utah, the land of the still-living myth that one cannot get a drink here, either not at all or with much hassle. We non-Mormons perpetuate this myth as much as we can so as to keep people off our world class rock & fairly good ice. But I do live in India as well where Delhi can reach 138 degrees; a good day is 110.

I recall years ago when my physics prof made the point that "cold" is not an "entity" or "thing" that can be measured in pure physics terms (don't know about outer space....not my field). Heat, on the other hand can be measured (as in BTUs). In other words, when one thinks they are "cold" or "it's cold outside", from a physics viewpoint that isn't true: it's just HEAT or the ABSENCE OF HEAT that we are feeling and/or measuring. Actually, I do get cold & sometimes I find myself (seriously) thinking of my prof's lesson: "damn, there isn't sufficient heat in my body -- must find some & soon". Helps me deal with it psychologically. So when your partners complain they are cold, you say "no, you aren't cold, you just aren't warm enough". Usually doesn't go over well.

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280
Gunkiemike wrote:First of all, if it's 50 below, I'm not climbing! And while your physiology may be correct re alcohol and vasodilation, ice climbers in general tend to generate a lot of body heat. Climbing can be hard work (we take the belay jacket off to climb...right?), so core heat is not in short supply. Peripheral circulation on the other hand (get it...hand? rimshot) is often diminished. Hence the cold hands and feet. So, for my money, bring on the booze. In moderation, OF COURSE. YMMV; I see you're in Utah, a state not often associated with alcohol consumption. NTTAWWT.
Those days are long gone for me. Was out raking leaves in the yard last week,,about 30 with a good wind,,so below freezing chills,,My hands were in thin felt work gloves and still got a bit of frostbite cold within 15 min...of working and using them even! I'm no good for cold anymore...time to move to Florida or Arizona and retire in a sunny place for good.
Thomas Stryker · · Chatham, NH · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 250

Everyone is different but...for both overall warmth, party success, and hand warmth, one important lesson I finally learned over 37 years of ice is to manage better, and rely on high tech gear less. Hydrate, then keep your hands really warm on the approach. So often people then take those warm hands and strip off the gloves to get their crampons on, don't, just deal with it.

I switch to " lead gloves " right when I start up, and then carry a pair of BD ice gloves if my hands get too cold, but they have not since I began to manage "before" better.

I'm old and have a tendency to screw up my SI joint if I belay standing, leaning off the anchor, so I wear hardshell bottoms and usually sit. Even though I'm all cheesed up when I get to the anchors, I switch to a balaclava or put my hood up. I almost always can lead in just a helmet. Keep the heat.

For party success, be thinking about your partner too. I won't hesitate to accept a shorter pitch first thing in the am if it means getting my partner moving and warm.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO KEEP PEOPLE WARM? About 10 yrs ago, I was involved in a study of new ideas that focused on new ways to deal with certain worker populations that were exposed to cold and heat extremes (i.e. construction workers, others). At the time, vests with gel packs were already in use and still are. The gel packs (can be purchased at the grocery store) were heated (microwaved or placed in very hot water) or the they were placed in the freezer. Depending on the weather protection needs, they were subsequently placed in pockets in the construction vests. They worked (and are still used) but are bulky and heavy. Some types cool/heat the entire vest.

In the last few years there has been considerable interest and research in developing different technologies that would serve the same purpose but were much lighter, thinner and covered more of the body. (The study I was involved in was a consulting assignment measuring health effects of workers using the gel vests; I'm involved with various kinds of human health issues (among other things), and not these technologies per se so I can't provide more specific information - apologies).

I have heard from colleagues specifically involved with worker health & safety issues (all kinds) regarding new technologies for heat/cold stress. They said anyone interested in this can look it up on the Internet. I briefly looked to see what I could find & post resources in this forum; there is a lot of info on these technologies, some of which are produced now. Several companies claim to have heat/cold stress "body suits", similar to an ultra thin wetsuits. They also claim to be very flexible and the person wearing them hardly knows they are using them. Those seem like tall claims (I didn't spend much time on their sites nor look at research sources that may discuss the down sides of these).

Not sure how they are powered....perhaps they are new gel (and/or nanoparticle) technologies? One company uses a source of electricity (from where?) but admits they only last 2-3 hours; I think it's an ultra -thin metal mesh. While I do not have Raynaud's syndrome (lack of blood flow to fingers, toes, nose & ears due to cold and/or strong emotional stress), several posters in this forum mentioned that they do. I have several friends who have Raynaud's such that it kept them from getting into or continuing ice climbing, sadly.

(One commenter said that ice climbers don't get cold because they are a moving, however, anyone that has done multi-pitch climbs (or even in the bottom of the Ouray top roped areas, whether watching or belaying) can get extremely cold. As everyone knows, wet clothing (as in wet from sweating) can lead to another set of cold problems, i.e, even if warm from climbing a pitch, that does not obviate being subject to cold at the belay station. Not all climbers swing leads. In fact, as all know, wet clothing can make cold conditions dangerously worse).

If interested, you'll have to do the research of the technologies and who is doing what.......I didn't/don't have the time to do so (apologies again) but am sympathetic to those individuals subject to cold (regardless of the reason). Those subject to cold or pre-disposed to cold as in Raynaud's syndrome & want to either continue ice climbing or try it again, you might look into it. Perhaps these companies make "mix & match" pieces, i.e., just gloves.

Because there are huge worker populations in various jobs, I suspect these technologies might be cheaper than one would expect but I've no idea......you now know as much as I do. (I spend part of my professional time in India where 110 to 130 degrees (F) is not uncommon - THAT sucks beyond description. Might have to look into the "keep cooler" technologies. Even some people there suffer from Raynaud's).

Forum members please post info if you know more about this subject; could help many.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433
Tom Stryker wrote:Everyone is different but...for both overall warmth
Too busy to read all replies and I think I may have already posted on this last year, but I have an analogy.

I feel like warmth when Ice climbing can be represented in a flow chart, wherein certain body types can bypass others in accomplishing goal. For example where some need only to consider clothing for success, others need to consider clothing & management & nutrition, while yet still some (now maybe this category you can start passing around the so quickly used 'R' word) can't accomplish staying ideally warm.

Of the cuff the categories and in such order are: Overall Body Warmth-Clothing, Warmth Management-Activities, and Nutrition. I am just really learning about the latter two, but the takeaway is overall body warmth as a starting point.

If you have cold hands, are your boots warm enough, your legs warm enough, your core, your hands, your head area? I know my setup is deficient in my leg area. I often do not feel cold in my legs, possibly attributed to our associated perception of 'cold' in the legs vs. cold in the hands. But I know this is where a lot of my heat loss comes from, and this is a basic factor for my hands getting cold.

If you can honestly say your system (clothing) is efficient in every aspect, move on to the next category Warmth Management. This is where you start to hike in with your climbing gloves in your inner fleece, only removing wet approach gloves to replace with smoking hot climbing gloves, never exposing bare skin and risking heat loss. This is when you actively manipulate your body temperature either through circulation exercises (bloodflow to specific area) or heartrate exercises (increase overall flow and temperature).

Now take in whatever everyone else in the forum is saying, and learn all the ins and outs of nutrition I have no idea about. And apply these systematically to your situation. Have one base covered and move to the next... seems too simple... maybe i'm dumbbing it down.

I've had this argument with my girlfriend constantly, she mentions Reynauds, but we both are in agreement that her boots are TERRIBLE, and her leg system is pretty bad. The amazing Hestra gloves I bought her and a well protected core will never be able to keep her hands warm if there are underlying circulation issues, but more importantly, she is not achieving overall body warmth.

Anyway just wanted to spew this uneducated and unfounded subjective thinking of mine, then when I have time I'll comeback and read all. This topic has become an interest of mine of late due to a childhood injury being further complicated by frost nip on a recent trip... or so I am guessing... I present to you, my amazing 'One White Finger'. Gets like this once or twice a day for no reason. I'm going to goto the doctor in the new year once I get some health care issues figured out.

One White Finger

Really hoping I get this figured out, was hoping to keep this thing...
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Stop sticking your finger there and problem solved.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145
Tom Sherman wrote: I present to you, my amazing 'One White Finger'. Gets like this once or twice a day for no reason. I'm going to goto the doctor in the new year once I get some health care issues figured out. Really hoping I get this figured out, was hoping to keep this thing...
Still falls within that Reynaud's umbrella (which is really a "we don't know what the fuck it is, but somehow circulation gets compromised for a temporary period of time"), different triggers can set it off, it's not always cold as the trigger, and can be predisposed from a previous tissue injury. Yours is attributable to a previous injury, more than likely.
Joanna Spindler · · Ouray, CO/ Telluride, CO · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 55

Hey Matt,
First, how hilarious that most of the replies here are from dudes! Not that you guys don't have some great savvy input, but...gals' circulation is just different, bros!
All the same, many great thoughts here already. I'd like to add a few things that make a big difference for me:

-Take a hot water bottle. Fill a Nalgene with boiling water, put your big belay gloves/mittens next to it, and wrap it all up in a belay puffy. Stuff it in your pack,& when you arrive at the climb/ start belaying, put on the pre-heated layers. Super toasty. You can even put the hot water bottle inside your belay puffy, it's like a battery keeping you warm!
On multi-pitch climbs I realize this isn't viable, but it sure is nice for single-pitch days.

-Drink hot liquids. My go-to is hot chai tea with TONS of ginger and extra cayenne/peppercorns. The capsaicin goes straight to your bloodstream and warms you up from the inside out. Bonus points if you sweeten it liberally and add a splash of milk- fat and sugar burns quickly to provide a boost of warmth!

-Remember to keep hydrating and eating. It's easy to forget, but there's a palpable drop in body warmth when you're not keeping up with water and food. (Even better: warm water from that pre-heated Nalgene.)

-Have a dance party! Even at a hanging belay, you can take a moment to bust some moves, get your circulation going, and bump your heart rate up a bit. Kelly Cordes has a few great ones here: youtube.com/watch?v=LS-vZew….

-Remember that it is natural for the body to respond to cold by shutting down in small ways. Don't fear it, just learn how to work around it and teach your body to focus elsewhere! The joy and thrills of ice climbing are far more noteworthy than the discomfort.

Good luck to you both & have a great season on the ice!

tyler lawrence · · durango, co · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 0

I didn't read all of these replies, but neoprene gloves work great. they are tight, grippy, and warm and when you sweat they stay warm. But they smell like as* when you take them off, maybe that will work.

tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

The bigger the better if u want an ice climbing girlfriend with warm hands. Volume to surface area ratio is pretty significant when it comes to heat loss. Encourage her to chow down!

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

BUFF IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT RE: TOM SHERMAN'S "white finger": it is a Reynaud's-related "sign" (the correct medical term; it is not a "symptom" nor the underlying pathology - those three words are different from each other).

Search 'Reynaud's disease or syndrome" (or Raynaud's - diff spelling, same thing) and you'll find plenty of photos of individuals with only one (or more) "white" finger all the way to the palm. As Buff also correctly alludes to, Reynaud's can be a "catch all" net of various medical diagnosis & opinions by physicians because it is an incredibly complex problem, linked to other underlying causes and triggers that are poorly understood by science. In other words, if one truly has Reynaud's (primary or secondary), it is almost certain there are other underlying problems that need further investigation by physician specialists; your family doc can't do it. It often goes misdiagnosed (because it's difficult to figure out ("WTF" as Dr. Buff might correctly say) or the patient puts up with cold fingers (ears, nose) for years absent an obvious problem that Tom Sherman has. (I agree with Buff: slam-dunk, TS has Reynaud's -- not frostbite -- and it needs pronto followup). Raynaud's patients do not necessarily present such a hefty, obvious sign so just because someone doesn't get white fingers like this ("twice per day for no reason" you say Tom? Eeeks man, hang in there).

It is also very painful and not to be dismissed by others as "oh, buck it up" nor a range of other palliative measures thinking it will go away (10 ft thick down mittens; wouldn't help). But Reynaud's patients can ice climb and be in cold weather -- MAYBE -- ...it might be a matter of how to manage the problem (depending on severity), i.e, if your fingers are cold from the start, don't make it worse. Raynaud's is usually episodic, meaning, it comes & goes...it is not necessarily a constant state. But it's like shingles: when it comes on, it's often painful, the trigger often unknown and people hanging around an individual with it typically doesn't understand how painful it can be. The disease affects women more than men.

It is well known in medical literature that those with undiagnosed Reynaud's do not seek medical advise earlier (at any age) because they are teased a great deal by friends, family, etc. for a long time (yrs) and the individual is embarrassed or they feel guilty in seeking medical advise, or they, like friends and family around them, think it's "in their head". Such teasing or dismissive comments by others is considered near the top reason why people do not at least have it checked out -- wrong. It's understandable that such teasing occurs because everyone is different (in case no one knew that) and we all tease people whether they need it or not. I know a zillion people who have cold-ish fingers for whatever reason but it isn't necessarily Reynaud's. A typical visit to a medical specialist begins with: "Geez doc, I've had this for years and thought that's just the way it is and sort of 'normal' for many people; everyone around me has given me a hard time for years about my cold fingers". Doc's reply: "Yep, heard this line for about my entire career. Now, tell me more......".

Episodic triggers are interesting (from a medical science viewpoint because we don't know a whole lot about the disease/syndrome.) Stress-related situations, caffeine, smoking (even second hand exposure may prompt an episode) and a large range of poorly understood "prompts"; it's in the "medical mystery" category. A genetic component has been associated with it and very recent progress (last year) was made down that alley. This is not to imply at all that anyone and everyone with frequently cold fingers, even in a warm environment, has Reynaud's.

A range of diagnostic tests exist that can be done to help, even absent an 'episode' or onset: thermographic imaging, blood tests & other methods . Because Reynaud's is a "sign" and NOT the underlying pathology (which can be linked to more diseases than one might want to know -- some very serious, many not), it is important for those with these "signs" seek medical advice. (Have I said this before??)

If you want in-depth info, try numerous professional journals or the Mayo Clinic's site (www.mayo.org) but it has some heavy duty photos if you go to other links from Mayo's site, so beware. ....some fingers are so solid white looking that they'd take a ¼ inch stubby screw (maybe even a V/A thread).

For a simple, short but spot-on intro to it all, look at Wikipedia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayna…). Several mild photos, one of which is absolutely identical to Tom's 'white finger' (only a bit worse). Identical. (Tom: you won't have it amputated but you need to be diligent w/the docs to try to get to the underlying pathology causing it, if they can find it. Otherwise, you will end up at Drs. Buff & Warbonnet's clinic wherein we will, in harmony, tell you "WTF"? And our rates are high, esp. when we don't know what we're talking about - we charge double for that).

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

So Warbonnet, lot to digest...
I cut the tip of that finger off when I was 2 or 3. They put it back together nice, but I have a visible scar. I can see the scar in that photo, but only because I know where it is, probably just looks like discoloration to you. Then mid-November of this year I did a long day out climbing, and got really cold and exposed.

I am willing to accept that coincidentally other factors in my body brought the onset of this to happen to coincide with the trip that I took. But in my belief, the limited circulation I had due to severing when I was younger was compromised further on that last trip.

Interestingly enough, on my last trip, last sunday, I found that my finger lost circulation like that and got cold when I was tying my double boots. (makes sense donut!) But I still had the car running and warmed it up with the heater/ flexed my hand a bunch. Later on my hands got really cold on the approach, mild case of screamin barfies, that stinging pain when the warmth returns. Well i popped my glove off and all the fingers were the same color.

This tells me that my case is not only 'episodic' as you described it, but that the coldness of my hands isn't inextricably linked to the lack of circulation. Although vice versa, the lack of circulation is linked to hand coldness. Was a good sign for me because it means that I'll just really have to get the circulation back when it's acting up, as opposed to my worry that it would constantly be a problem ice climbing in cold conditions.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Tom,

GREAT additional background info in your last post. I hope my comments did not offend you nor my reference to your finger.

I'm in the medical field & this thread, the overall forum dialogue, and especially your story & photo caught my attention. I'm not trying to play physician in this forum -- my larger professional and academic involvement with Raynaud's is but one piece of a larger picture I work on, that being human thermoregulation problems - that's the "umbrella". I'm involved with a number of studies that do not even include Raynaud's, rather other medical problems related to "feeling or being cold".

As an ice climber, it's natural for me to see what the ice climbing community on MP is talking about re: cold, thus, I'm genuinely interested in virtually everyone's comments here regarding being cold, whatever body part(s) may be involved (not just hands), how people deal with it (or not), etc. My take away from the general dialogue here comes from a thermoregulation researcher and sometimes clinician viewpoint, not as one who is an expert in Raynaud's because I'm not.

That said, I admit to a mini-agenda (w/no apologies) in possibly helping (w/many others' experience in this forum) shed a tiny bit of light on a serious medical problem that affects many people worldwide. It is vastly under-diagnosed, thousands suffer for years thinking (or being relentlessly told by others) that it's "normal" to fell that way, are teased about it, and often never seek professional medical help. There is an array of known medical ways to deal with it or in some cases avoid it because some over the counter meds (like Sedated & many others) can prompt an R problem. Your doc will tell you what to avoid. Raynaud's is also related to an astounding range of categorical maladies, many of which are not seemingly even related. Understanding it from a medical science viewpoint isn't a 'holy grail' to all things health related but it may be one of the holy grail puzzle pieces.

I'm part of a Raynaud's research team in India (where I live part time) studying 5,000 workers in various industries throughout the country. The study focuses on Raynaud's & exposure to vibration, a well-known association. Occupations like sanding, grinding, certain construction activities, repetitive production work, wherein workers are exposed to relatively constant vibration during their work day (a regulated occupational hazard in many countries) via working with their hands. Think jack hammering concrete all day, every day. Raynaud's doesn't respect int'l borders & doesn't need to be in cold climates to be a problem.

Far from you saying that your thinking is "uneducated, unfounded & subjective", you are an excellent, keen observer of what is going on: the conditions & situations where you have different sensory feelings, different skin color shifts (& not just the obvious 'white finger'; other skin colors are important in R diagnostics & you're noticing them), thinking through ways to manage the problem, whatever it might be (Raynaud's or not)....great stuff. You are the kind of (pardon the word) "subject" that researchers like to be involved with. You have a great way of describing your issue and I'm sure others can relate to all or portions of your "events". Your problem isn't unique but you have made yourself, to your credit, your own "study subject". Others in this forum are also making keen observations on "cold hands" or cold in general.....it's all worth listening to.

LIV (in this string) seems to have really figured out a way to deal with what sounds like a specific diagnosis of serious primary Renaud's syndrome. What she has done is remarkable actually - very smart and obviously very diligent in pursuing her own recipe to deal with it so she's not forced out of something we all love to do -- climb frozen (or compressed as in alpine) water. She's kept herself in the game - big kudos. For those not familiar with Raynaud's, her post is worth reading several times. She pours out here pain as well as her determination to be R's boss and not vice versa.

THERE IS POSSIBLY GOOD NEWS COMING OUT ON THE MEDICAL FRONT: After considerable research and development (but not yet available), it's been shown that a nitric oxide gel can be rubbed on the skin when R episodes flare or might even stop them from showing up. Results of some of these studies were just published this year --- fresh beta.

I won't go into the physiology of how it works - search "nitric oxide Raynaud's" on the net if interested -- lots of info) but basically it is dermally absorbed & increases blood flow in the immediate area). Being optimistic, how wonderful would it be for R sufferers to slather a bit of nitric oxide gel on their hands like suntan lotion, gloves on and they're off to the addiction of the frozen world. (It likely won't be that simple & won't help everyone but research is getting there).

___________________

Tom, re: the finger tip "amputation" at 2 or 3 yrs old, I think I can see the scar you mentioned in your last post. Runs from 11:00 to 4:00 o'clock? Y/N? If so, it's a small area that was sliced off & sewn back on. Seems disproportionate to the size of the white area in that there wasn't a lot of vascular loss at that time; however, you were tiny then and the vascular system is trying to grow like crazy.

Does the white finger in your photo feel cold when that happens? Shouldn't be....should just be numb....the intense cold feeling comes later, (yes?) when the blood flow returns. Interested in your reply.

Because there is a genetic component almost certainly related to Raynaud's, perhaps early childhood trauma (cut your finger tip off likely by sharpening your crampons at 2 yrs old....getting psyched for ice climbing two decades later), however small the injury, it may have "prompted" a recessive trait that blossomed as you got older. Such events are well documented in medical literature, i.e, something that happened decades earlier shows up later. A number of cancers do this trick.

Tom, regardless of what your condition is diagnosed to be, it's almost certain to be a thermoregulatory problem. Because there are other medical disease "mimics" of Raynaud's, a visit to a med specialist is mandatory. PASHKA (in this string) mentions TOS (thoracic outlet syndrome)....that's a R mimic but a dermatologist or rheumatologist will rule stuff like that either 'In" or "out" as to the real problem.

Your mysterious finger color changes that happen twice a day (for "no reason" you say) are 'episodes' of something (but you're going to find out soon). A classic diagnostic of full-on Raynaud's is the 'three phase color shift" (but seen or not seen, depending on severity): finger(s) will 1) turn white or 'white-ish" (any portion); 2) when oxygen is exhausted in the digital blood, the skin turns blue-ish (called cyanosis); 3) when blood returns (whenever), the skin turns red. Can take hours (as Raynaud's sufferers know too well) and is not necessarily so vividly colored. (The photo in Wiki of the woman's hands has all the classic colors...and she has serious Raynauld's).

Am very interested in your color shift.....let us know more next time it happens. And your doc's diagnosis...(I still stand by mine....sort of...need to think thru your new clues in your last post, talk to some of my colleagues in 120 degree Delhi).

Keep climbing Tom and the best to the rest of you in this forum.

Warbonnet

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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