American Fork DUI Checkpoint

mustardtiger wrote:So I just happened to be scrolling through the forums on here and found this little thread. I am quite entertained by all the law professionals in this thread posting about their rights. First off police have the right to search you and your vehicle for weapons which will lead to them finding the drugs unless you know what your doing. This search is called a Terry search and is used to make sure that the person being pulled over doesn't have a gun readily available. This means the cops can search your glove box, center console, under the seats, etc. They cannot however search your trunk or any area that is not easy to get to for the driver. My boy Jay-z made the same mistake many other people make as far as the warrants go "And I know my rights so you gon' need a warrant for that" That is simply not true. In no state do the police need a warrant to search a car, all they need is prob. cause. Now if you are looking for loopholes your best way to not get caught is to keep your drugs in the trunk, refuse consent and hopee that the canine unit is to far away to get there fast enough becuase it is illegal for the officer to keep you there for a prolonged amount of time and believe it or not most courts will suppress evidence if they watch the dashboard cams and see that the officer had you pulled over for 30 minutes while he waited for a dog. Just to validate myself I have a degree in criminal justice and am in the process of getting my masters in criminal justice.

Hit the books again mustardtiger. A Terry Seach is a search incident to arrest; a stop and frisk if you will. In a legal traffic stop, officers may frisk the individual if there is reasonable suspicion the individual is armed and dangerous. Police MAY NOT search your vehicle without probable cause or consent.

ChrisV wrote: A Terry Seach is a search incident to arrest

No, it isn't. Two different things. Hit the books.

The Terry Vs. Ohio actually did determine that a person is allowed to be frisked without being arrested and that the car may also be frisked for weapons. "Terry frisk is limited to accessible places a weapon could be hidden, the trunk is definitely off limits at this point." This is from the Saint Louis School of Law.

slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%2…

Yes the Search is meant for weapons but if drugs or any other illegal object is found in the car it is still legally obtained evidence.

If a police officer really wants to search your car they can do it just about anytime they want. If you are going 1 mph over the speed limit you can be arrested and your car will be impounded which then allows the police to search everything in the car.
Do I agree with this? No but it is the way things are today.

So if the glove box is locked is it exempt from a Terry search? Would there need to be a warrant to get into it if nothing was found while rolling the car? Road tripping this weekend in a subaru, no trunk, want to be reasonably sure of my options.

No. I have never heard of a case where a warrant is issued for a car. Normally the only way a car is going to get a full search is if there is consent, prob. cause, or the car is impounded. I am not real sure on a locked because I don't know if that is considered readily available.

Most people really screw up by having some let overs laying around or something visible. If the cop can see it or it is very obvious that you have it then your screwed. My advice is always say no to a search of any kind and light up before getting in your car and keep your stuff in the trunk inside a backpack or something. I have been pulled over around 21 times and refused consent 3 times. To this day I have never been ticketed one time. If your on your home turf and you have clearly done nothing wrong then have some fun with the cop. I have messed with a cop a few times and usually they get a good chuckle.

Mustard. When you say"police have the right" you are beginning with a fundamental misunderstanding of law. Your statements above are misleading too. If a cop doesn't have specific and articulable evidence or probable cause they have no rights. Yes they may break the rules. But armed with a little knowledge you can put many situations to rest.

In this country, the only rights you have are the ones you know you have and are willing to defend.

Greg D wrote:Mustard. When you say"police have the right" you are beginning with a fundamental misunderstanding of law. Your statements above are misleading too. If a cop doesn't have specific and articulable evidence or probable cause they have no rights. Yes they may break the rules. But armed with a little knowledge you can put many situations to rest. In this country, the only rights you have are the ones you know you have and are willing to defend.

I apologize if I worded that wrong. I am by no means a lawyer and I do not intend to be one. I have just had this stuff pounded into my head for 5 years now so when I see an argument like this I cant help but add my two cents. I don't understand what you mean by police don't have rights. This conversation seems a lot like the "you have the right to deny a Sobriety test or breathalyzer" conversation. In that case you do indeed have the right to deny it but once you are arrested they can and WILL test you when you get processed. Cops know their rights and civilians rights much better than most people so they are able to find ways of legally getting done whatever it is they want to do. Unless you are handicapped and unable to stand and you refuse consent then your car will be searched if it is that important to them.

mustardtiger wrote: I apologize if I worded that wrong. I am by no means a lawyer and I do not intend to be one. I have just had this stuff pounded into my head for 5 years now so when I see an argument like this I cant help but add my two cents. I don't understand what you mean by police don't have rights. This conversation seems a lot like the "you have the right to deny a Sobriety test or breathalyzer" conversation. In that case you do indeed have the right to deny it but once you are arrested they can and WILL test you when you get processed. Cops know their rights and civilians rights much better than most people so they are able to find ways of legally getting done whatever it is they want to do. Unless you are handicapped and unable to stand and you refuse consent then your car will be searched if it is that important to them.

Again, nice try by someone whom presented their qualifications. To say they can and will test you is wrong again. You don,t ever have to aquiesse to a blood or breath test. There are consequences. But you can still refuse. Perhaps your teacher works for law enforcement.

Keny Glasscock wrote:You must be so proud.

Ha ha, missed that post but a belated No Kenny, not "proud" just relieved that on my time off, while recreating in a national forest fee area, that I already pay taxes to support,I didnt get pulled out of my vehicle, searched, arrested, handcuffed, stuffed into a patrol vehicle, driven 30 miles south to the jail, dragged thru court, publicly charged and humiliated, my drivers license suspended, my bussiness license revoked, excomunicated from my church, divorced from my wife, tared and feathered and run out of town on a rail, just because I exercised some freedom of choice as to what I put in my body. So if I seem proud that I avoided all that... so be it. Judge not lest ye be judged my glass house living amigo!

thomas bailey wrote: Ha ha, missed that post but a belated No Kenny, not "proud" just relieved that on my time off, while recreating in a national forest fee area, that I already pay taxes to support,I didnt get pulled out of my vehicle, searched, arrested, handcuffed, stuffed into a patrol vehicle, driven 30 miles south to the jail, dragged thru court, publicly charged and humiliated, my drivers license suspended, my bussiness license revoked, excomunicated from my church, divorced from my wife, tared and feathered and run out of town on a rail, just because I exercised some freedom of choice as to what I put in my body. So if I seem proud that I avoided all that... so be it. Judge not lest ye be judged my glass house living amigo!

just another 'stay cool, be nice and hope the beer cans and pipes are out of sight'

its really quite easy to not have any trouble as long as you arent fully impaired to the point of throwing shit out the window/turning around.

Pretty old topic, but since it's been resurrected.... What slightly annoys me about checkpoints is not that they are looking for DUI offenders, but rather that they ask for my license when it's clear I have not had anything to drink or done anything wrong. I always ask how my license will help determine if I have been drinking or not, and the standard answer is that my license verifies that I am legally authorized to drive my vehicle. But that's not what a DUI checkpoint is about—it's about finding out if I have been drinking. The police cannot simply pull me over without reasonable suspicion simply to randomly see if I have a license or not, so how is it legal in a DUI checkpoint?

20 kN wrote:The police cannot simply pull me over without reasonable suspicion simply to randomly see if I have a license or not, so how is it legal in a DUI checkpoint?

Because they are putting *everyone* through the checkpoint and theoretically doing the same checks.

law.cornell.edu/supremecour…

20 kN wrote:What pisses me off the most about checkpoints are not that they are looking for DUI offenders, but rather that they ask for my license when it's clear I have not had anything to drink or done anything wrong. I always ask how my license will help determine if I have been drinking or not,...

Why would you do a thing like that? If you annoy him, officer Krupke can make your life worse in myriad ways, and he probably knows the law better than you. Just act polite, helpful, and slightly stupid, and everyone goes on with his life.

seano wrote: Why would you do a thing like that? If you annoy him, officer Krupke can make your life worse in myriad ways, and he probably knows the law better than you. Just act polite, helpful, and slightly stupid, and everyone goes on with his life.

I am well within my legal rights to ask an officer a question while complying with his orders. In any case, I don't give them a hard time and yell at them, I do as I am told and show them my license. But I also calmly ask how my license helps them identify if I have been drinking or not. That's a completely valid question since I am at a DUI checkpoint being asked things that are not related to DUIs.

20 kN wrote: I am well within my legal rights to ask an officer a question while complying with his orders. In any case, I don't give them a hard time and yell at them, I do as I am told and show them my license. But I also calmly ask how my license helps them identify if I have been drinking or not. That's a completely valid question since I am at a DUI checkpoint being asked things that are not related to DUIs.

I think we're in violent agreement. You're within your rights, but you also have to not yell and do as you're told. They can do the fake "cop rage" thing to hopefully make you obey without using physical force, and then taze you if you don't comply. They can dig around for laws you're breaking, and probably find some. If you're dealing with the Border Patrol near Mexico, go for it, but it's just not worth annoying actual cops.

seano wrote: ...and he probably knows the law better than you...

Lol!

Yes, police are high school graduates + police academy, right? I guess the police academy training is equivalent to a law degree now.

Police lie in order to get you to do what they want. They don't tell you "You have the right to reject a search of your vehicle. Do you consent to a search of your vehicle?"

I thought they were more like "Please step out of the vehicle, I'm going to search it" or something similar.

Police deserve to be dealt with suspicion. That's how we keep them on the up and up. I don't buy the 'policemen sacrifice for me' argument either. Why would so many people apply for a job that was a sacrifice? You'd think we would be looking under rugs to find these sacrificial people. Must be humans are a lot more altruistic than I thought they were.

Also, I've had to make a written complaint before after being harassed by a policeman and I was told in the response letter that from now on he had to wear audio and video surveillance. Win? Not sure. After watching the Eric Garner film and then seeing the aftermath, I'm not sure if it makes this police officer act differently. It is a start though.

Cheers,

Don't drink and drive, have a valid drivers license or do illegal shit for that matter and you'll be just fine. Why is everyone so F'ing sensitive...Checkpoints are "harassing!" Jesus!
I work EMS and see plenty of carnage involving DUI. Innocent people get killed, injured and lives are affected forever. If your wife or child got hurt by some drunk you'd blame the cops for that too I'm sure. Quit wanking. Do you bitch about security at the airport?

Your rights to ask police officers things that will antagonize them isn't in question...Your decision decision to do so is. Let them do their job making the roads safer and go home to your family.

Scottmx426 wrote:Don't drink and drive, have a valid drivers license or do illegal shit for that matter and you'll be just fine. Why is everyone so F'ing sensitive...Checkpoints are "harassing!" Jesus! I work EMS and see plenty of carnage involving DUI. Innocent people get killed, injured and lives are affected forever. If your wife or child got hurt by some drunk you'd blame the cops for that too I'm sure. Quit wanking. Do you bitch about security at the airport? Your rights to ask police officers things that will antagonize them isn't in question...Your decision decision to do so is. Let them do their job making the roads safer and go home to your family.

I'd only blame the police if that were to happen if it were a drunk cop that hit them. Checkpoints are harassing, that's why a number of states have deemed them unconstitutional. The problem isn't cops doing their jobs, the problem is that we have seen multiple examples of cops not doing their jobs and harassing/killing people that they were supposed to be protecting.

Dylan B. wrote: In my experience, most police officers do go in to the profession through a mix of wanting to help people, and wanting to "catch bad guys." Like all people, the motives of prospective police officers are mixed. But when they spend day-in and day-out in the culture of a police department, "helping people" begins to take a back seat to "catching bad guys."

I'm sure you're right. I got caught up in a pessimistic attitude moment. Also to their credit, they deal with a lot of scumbags on a day to day basis. That would certainly change your view of the world.

Honestly, we ask for perfection. I guess the main reasonable thing I would ask of them is to just be sincere. I don't like the mind games, intimidation and crap. And you know what, it's okay for them to not know the law. The law is extremely complex with this court decision having an effect on that law and blah blah. They should be more open about what they do and don't know.

There should be a conversation between a cop and a civilian, not a one way talk where I'm nervous. Why should I be nervous? I'm regular Joe go to work and do my thing guy. Instead, I get nervous when I have to talk to them because who the hell knows what I'm doing wrong that I don't even know about. Or am I really going to have to spend the next 30 minutes defending my rights while my heart is in my throat and my nerves are singing?

It's the fucking police! They're here to help me. Why am I so scared of them?