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Half Rope Questions

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

the biggest downsides to half ropes?

- its more faff ... this can be ameliorated with more practice of course ... but it has a longer learning curve especially on multi

- which brings us to the main draw back ... your partner needs to be skilled and practiced in using half ropes ... if they arent then the danger of them fumbling away and not catching you on those thin strands is much greater than any advantages ... belaying and catching on halves is not something that you can practice in the gym to keep your skills ... it requires regular partners that climb and belay not infrequently with them outside ... or you live in an area where half rope skills are common

- a beefy 10mm+ rope will usually be more durable than a half rope ... half ropes however can be more durable than the < 9mm singles out there ... on a climb where your partner is hangdogging or yr taking repeated whippers, half ropes or the thin ones at least are likely not the best choice

- theres no escaping from the fact theyll cost roughly twice as much ...

most modern half ropes can be used as twins. and often are ... whether the manufacturer specifies it or not ... crunch the numbers and youll see why

half ropes use as twins generally have the same impact force as a maxim single rope

;)

David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2
rgold wrote: I've said this before to general merriment at my noobishness, but I've found Metolius rope hooks to work very well for managing belays at stances without a ledge to pile the ropes on.
I snicker at the idea of anyone viewing you as a noob.
Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55
Chuck Parks wrote: Holy crap, he quoted himself within the same post. I don't even know what's real anymore!
:) I tried to edit my original post and this is what happened. At my age the whole computer thing is over my head. :)
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
bearbreeder wrote:...which brings us to the main draw back...your partner needs to be skilled and practiced in using half ropes...if they aren't then the danger of them fumbling away and not catching you on those thin strands is much greater than any advantages...belaying and catching on halves is not something that you can practice in the gym to keep your skills...it requires regular partners that climb and belay not infrequently with them outside...or you live in an area where half rope skills are common
Yes, this is important to emphasize. The advantages of halves are lost if the belayer isn't skilled at managing them.
Likeasummerthursday · · Las Vegas, Nevada · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 90

This:

rgold wrote: I always pile and stack the ropes together (except on the ground at the first pitch) and I have never had a tangle occur while taking in or feeding out ropes unequally. The tangles I've gotten occur during belay changeovers and so are related to how the ropes were stacked by the belayer who was bringing up the second.
brian burke · · mammoth lakes, ca · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 165
kenr wrote: long non-difficult alpine rock routes where I just left the second half-rope in the car to save weight. . Ken
this.

having a mega skinny rope is great for super easy climbing with long steep approaches.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Greeley wrote:For example, my first thought was whether I would need a new belay device, but I looked it up and my ATC-Guide is rated down to 7.7 mm (I'm considering ropes in the mid-8 mm region). I was also wondering whether my rappel backup method would still work on the skinnier ropes, but I figured another wrap or two with my Klemheist or Prusik should do the trick (please let me know if this assumption is wrong). A couple other questions along those lines: If I use the climbing rope as a part of a system (e.g., building an anchor, tying into the anchor, tying a munter hitch, self-rescue), I imagine I would use both ropes together (in other words, twin technique) when building each element of the system, right? Are there any issues related to self-rescue that would be different from using a single rope? Anything else? Anyway, those are the types of issues I'm most concerned about. Thanks in advance.
As someone based in the UK, I climb on twins on trad most of the time, as do 90% of climbers here.

1. ATC fine. But at <8mm you need a second locker and know where to place it.
2. third hand as with a single, use a french prusik, but you might need a different number of turns
3. anchor building: we tend to use one rope to tie into pieces on the left, and one to pieces on the right. If you have 60m ropes there is some logic in just using one rope in the anchors as the other can then be more easily extracted for rescue if needed. But in truth few do this.
4. self rescue to so, so, so much easier with two ropes
5. we don't stack the ropes separately normally.
6. the downsides are that you can't use a grigri and it all gets in a mess if you try to speed climb - but I'm guessing you might not be planning on either of these.
7. the belaying is more difficult, but only until you have learnt how to do it. This should only take a couple of long routes.
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
rgold wrote:The advantages of halves are lost if the belayer isn't skilled at managing them.
I'm not getting this.
Assuming I use some specific measures so the belayer does not drop me - (such as a second carabiner and belay gloves -- or an assisted-braking device like the two-strand Click-Up)
why do I still do not get these benefits from double-rope leading?

- better protection of the following climber on traverse sections

- reduced rope drag and shorter slings on protection

I don't see how those require any special techniques by the belayer -- except yelling at me when I forget to place protection near the start of a traverse.

Ken
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
kenr wrote: I'm not getting this. Assuming I use some specific measures so the belayer does not drop me - (such as a second carabiner and belay gloves -- or an assisted-braking device like the two-strand Click-Up) why do I still do not get these benefits from double-rope leading? - better protection of the following climber on traverse sections - reduced rope drag and shorter slings on protection I don't see how those require any special techniques by the belayer -- except yelling at me when I forget to place protection near the start of a traverse. Ken
its because of the fact that many climbers out there ARENT practiced at handling double ropes nor catching on em ...

when was the last time the many belayers caught a decent whipper on doubles? ... with singles many climbers catch whippers constantly in the gym or on hard sport ...

a belayer who isnt skilled and practiced on modern skinny doubles who hasnt caught falls on em before ... well that aint the most confidence inspiring ... assisted braking devices on skinny doubles as mistah titts data shows may well be a placebo on large falls

if you look carefully at someome whos pretty new to halves, you may even see that when they fumble feeding one strand they have an absolutely minimal, if any, grip on the other ...

the other part is rope management, which is bit more complicated with halves ... this is especially true on multi where folks who arent experienced in halves often get tangles and twists, often in the worst possible time ... and to sort things out while feeding ive seen folks basically let go of one or both strands

halves are fine if you have regular partners who are skilled in em or climb in an area where its common

however if your belayer has never or rarely used em ... then using them as twins is more prudent

the most important things a belayer needs to do is to catch the fall and feed the rope ... both of which are impossible to practice properly unless a person uses halves not too infrequently outside

singles on the other hand you can practice this all the time in the gym

;)
Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

Things were simpler when doubles were all 8.5 to 9mm thick. Some of the newer doubles are 7.8 etc which introduces (or at least makes more critical) belay skills - they might be a little easier to feed but harder to catch with etc. The super thin ropes also introduce repelling issues - but none of this is difficult to overcome. It isn't really hard to learn to belay with doubles but it does have a learning curve that belayers have to go through. I suggest learning with the leader on routes easy enough that falls are highly unlikely - and learning to catch falls with some kind of backup plan. This stuff really isn't that hard.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
kenr wrote: ... why do I still do not get these benefits from double-rope leading? - better protection of the following climber on traverse sections - reduced rope drag and shorter slings on protection I don't see how those require any special techniques by the belayer -- except yelling at me when I forget to place protection near the start of a traverse. Ken
You're right, those advantages aren't dependent on belayer behavior. The advantages I was thinking about were the advantages of alternate clipping when either a marginal piece blows while still overhead or the leader blows an overhead clip and falls. Both these cases would, with a single rope, result in longer falls because of the slack in the system resulting from the blown piece or clip. With properly managed half ropes, the leader is caught on the next piece down with no extra fall distance because the added slack in in the other rope.

"Properly managed" means that the belayer has been taking in the rope running through the overhead piece while paying out the rope in the lower piece, or in the case of the difficult clip has only pumped out slack in the clipping rope. What happens to inexperienced belayers is because there is a tug on one rope they pay out both ropes, adding unnecessary slack to the rope through the lower piece and so negating all the benefits of alternate clipping.

Personally, with small gear, I rely on these benefits all time. I'll place marginal overhead gear that I might not use with a single rope, and I sure don't want to find out that my belayer has converted the system to single rope drop length parameters.

Beyond these specific belaying actions which do not correspond to anything belayers do with a single rope, there are the issues raised by bearbreeder about potential lack of practice, although I think it possible in many gyms to bring your own half ropes and belay with them, which seems like a good idea if you don't get outside enough and/or your usual climbing area isn't one where half rope techniques is particularly useful.

It is worth mentioning an aspect of the friction reduction advantage of half ropes that seems to me to go unnoticed. When people speak of this, there usually seems to be an assumption that the pro placements are the same ones that would be used for a single rope, but the half ropes allow for shorter slings. Overlooked, I think, is the potential with half ropes to use protection placements that could not be considered with a single rope no matter what slingage is involved.

Any time there are widely-spaced protection opportunities at approximately the same height, half ropes allow the leader to use both rather than having to choose one. This obviously happens when there is a long horizontal crack, but it also happens a lot more than many people realize on, say, granite, where parallel but not close vertical cracks offer the same kind of possibilities. I think the half-rope climber develops a certain vision for opportunities the single-rope climber has to ignore and so doesn't even notice. I say this because I've watched single-rope climbers forced to use my halves miss all kinds of good protection opportunities because (I assume) of the ingrained single line perspective.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

theres one other issue with belaying with halves that if one observes closely youll likely see

with singles its fairly easy to belay a bit "long" ... which means that you keep your brake hand not too close to the belay device so that if a big whipper happens your hand doesnt get sucked in

with half ropes i notice than when belayers are feeding a single strand (and pulling in the other), they often belay with their brake a bit close to the device, and spend more time in the "unlocked" (hand a bit higher up on the device) position to facilitate feeding and taking in simultaneously

also one tends to keep a finger in between the ropes, which can be a bit of a change (twins you grasp both ropes normally)

with an experienced half rope belayer this isnt a big issue ...but with an inexperienced one, its perhaps not the best should the climber take a whipper

;)

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

All true! These observations are one of the reasons I think the Alpine Up is the way to go for belaying with half ropes.

Because of the index finger between the strands, I find I need gloves in any case, otherwise I tend to get a burn or blister between the index and middle fingers just from a day of rapid rope motions.

kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
rgold wrote:... I think the Alpine Up is the way to go for belaying with half ropes.
Well I've already gotten started with its Click Up sister device for assisted braking on a single rope - (because it's hard for my left-handed belayer to make a quick feed for clipping when using a GriGri). And I'm liking that (but we got reprimanded for practicing with it indoors at our local climbing gym).

So perhaps my next step is the Alpine Up for double-rope leading.

Ken
kenr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 16,608
rgold wrote:Overlooked, I think, is the potential with half ropes to use protection placements that could not be considered with a single rope no matter what slingage is involved.
Thanks for that idea new for me.
But maybe those placements could be considered with a single rope.

I would suggest that all of the advantages of double-rope technique are also available to teams using a single-rope ...

On pitches less than half the length of their rope.

The leader ties into the midpoint of the single-rope. The follower sets up a belay on both strands. Away goes the leader using double-rope technique, with better prot placement options, safer following on traverses, shorter down if fall while clipping.

. . (At non-tall crags with lots of horizontal anchor ledges like the Gunks, I suspect a great number of traversing pitches are short enough to do double-rope technique on a single).

Obviously this trick also works with a single half-rope (leaving the other half-rope in the car).

So one more advantage of half ropes over twins: Sometimes you can use double-rope technique while carrying only half the weight - one (lighter) rope.

Ken
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
rgold wrote:All true! These observations are one of the reasons I think the Alpine Up is the way to go for belaying with half ropes.
Any idea if the mammut alpine smart is as good or better? I find the alpine up great with thin twins, but not my chunky half ropes.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I use the UP happily with 8.5mm half ropes. I know a number of people who use it with 8mm ropes too. Bigger than 8.5 I have neither direct nor indirect experience.

When I use the UP, I belay palm up, not palm down they way one does with an ATC. The palm-up position makes half-rope handling much more fluid and probably also makes feeding the device easier. With an ATC, the palm-up position is less powerful for braking and has pretty universally been abandoned, but this is not an issue with the UP because of the assist. At least I thought it wasn't an issue until Jim Titt posted his results about the decline in the force-multiplying factor of assisted braking devices as the load increases. Now I'm not entirely sure what to think, but meanwhile I'm still belaying palm up. (An added "bonus:" my brake hand is automatically in the right position for a factor 2 fall.)

There seem to be many happy users of the Alpine Smart, but few of the ones I know are using it for half rope technique. I tried it and rejected it because, as I said earlier, of the need to tie up the non-braking hand levering the device away from the harness in order to pump slack. I need both hands to manage half ropes; perhaps others are more dexterous or have found a way to accommodate the sidelining of the non-brake hand. I can report watching some folks trying to use the Smart Alpine for half-rope belaying and generally screwing up, continually short-roping the leader, but they may simply have been unskilled in its use.

There is also the Edelrid Mega Jul, which seems from everything I've heard to be the least effective option for half ropes. It too has its (rabid) defenders, as a search of the forums will reveal, but for me it is automatically disqualified because it requires the same non-brake hand levering as the Smart in order to pump slack.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

for the smart simply keep an eye on the last strand clipped ... that is the one that matters .... feed or take it out with minimal slack

the other strand, it doesnt really matter if theres a slight bit more slack out, it isnt the one youll be falling on unless gear pops ... and should your gear pop while clipping high on the other strand an extra foot of slack on the one in your hand is the least of yr worries generally ... in other words you dont really need to feed and take in exactly simultaneously

remember that the technique of depending on half ropes for lessening the fall between pieces vs a single is only useful earlier on in a climb ... once you get to a certain point the stretch of the ropes will render it irrelevant

similarly with singles once you get high enough, the tricks one uses to lessen fall lenghts (not extending, minimal slack, etc...) than one can use earlier on are similarly rendered moot due to rope stretch

the smart, like a grigri and ATC, requires practice to master ... i use it just fine for halves (smaller version)

as to folding a single and using it as a half ... this works fine of course, but can give a false sense of security if using as practice... there is a BIG difference between catching a fall on 9.8mm used as halves and a 7.8mm actual half ropes ... the friction difference is immense

;)

jktinst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

Using double rope technique with two strands of a single rope is also not recommended because it results in much greater impact forces.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
jktinst wrote:Using double rope technique with two strands of a single rope is also not recommended because it results in much greater impact forces.
not necessarily true if you work out the numbers ... it really depends on the rope

for example the mammut serenity 8.7mm has a single rope impact UIAA impact force of 8.4 KN ... and is rated as a half and twin as well

does anyone here believe that a booster 9.7mm which has a single rope impact force of 7.2 KN would have a significantly greater impact force if used as a half than the serenity?

;)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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