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Oak Flat, S339 Moving Again!!! Please take a minute!

DesertRat · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 196

Kirra, your invite says 11:30pm. I am assuming you mean 11:30am? I wish I could make it, but I am tied up at work all day tomorrow.

Robin like the bird · · Philomath, or · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 300

Bump, people should be on this

Lora Durance · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 41

Dear friends,

I'm writing a letter to Obama.

I want to throw up my hands and say it's over. Writing won't change anything... Obama won't veto. I guess it's a good thing the National Parks benefited, even if the San Carlos Apache, climbers, canyoneers and other user groups -- the land itself -- lost out....

But the cost of me writing is small, 10 minutes maybe. The result? Unknowable.

The cost of me NOT writing is potentially huge, the ultimate loss of Queen Creek to a foreign mining company. The result, if I do not speak up, is concrete.

If I don't write this letter , I am deciding my voice doesn't count. I want to stand for the fair, altruistic and a-political procedure of the passage of law in this country. If I don't sign, I'm giving greed and money the scepter of power. I'm not okay with that. I refuse to be quiet if the land must pay the price for my silence.

Letter template:
org.salsalabs.com/o/676/p/d…

Please send a letter. Incorporate your own words. (And change the misspelled word "unrcontionable" to "unconscionable".)

-Lora

Dan 60D5H411 · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 3,239

It doesn't even take ten minutes to re-word the letter in the above link and send it. Let your voice be heard.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe…

Don't forget about this one either folks... 95k votes. 5k more and Obama will have to respond directly (or so they claim) not that that will change anything as Obama is part of the reason dems couldn't argue against the amendments.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

And the word of the day is...

realpolitik..

knew those German classes would be good for something :-)

kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530
DesertRat wrote:Kirra, your invite says 11:30pm. I am assuming you mean 11:30am? I wish I could make it, but I am tied up at work all day tomorrow.
DesertRat you may get another chance!!
*recent developments ResCopper website stay tuned!

"Due to continuation of Senate business in Washington D.C., the Congressional visit of Senator John McCain and Jeff Flake and US Representatives Ann Kirkpatrick and Paul Gosar in Superior, AZ is being rescheduled"
Concerned Climbers of Arizona · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
kirra wrote: "...It will become law as soon as President Barack Obama signs it. Rio Tinto, though subsidiary Resolution Copper, will take possession of the land a year later. Although the land will then be private property and federal environmental reviews will no longer be enforceable..." HuffPost 12-12
There is so much misinformation in this thread it's difficult to know where to begin, but the above statement is no longer true. Section 3003 of Title XXX of the NDAA (what the RCM land exchange is now) plainly states that a full environmental impact statement must be done by the Forest Service before any public land can be transferred to Resolution Copper. The practical implication of this is that we will collectively have several more years to fight this through NEPA and the courts before any of our public land is lost.

Passage of this land exchange is clearly not good, but there is absolutely nothing that could have been done to prevent it. When omnibus bill packages are pre-negotiated in back rooms in the dark of night there is no public process in which to participate--and pieces of bad legislation that could not pass through Congress on their own merits get passed.
kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530
Concerned Climbers of Arizona wrote: There is so much misinformation in this thread it's difficult to know where to begin, but the above statement is no longer true. Section 3003 of Title XXX of the NDAA (what the RCM land exchange is now) plainly states that a full environmental impact statement must be done by the Forest Service before any public land can be transferred to Resolution Copper.
well hello! thanks for coming out :) The HuffPost is incorrect that's a shock

please don't shoot the innocent for trying to be 'concerned' -not much info around lately on our side except Rogers' AZ Mining Reform -beggars can't be choosy eh? (CCA website was also down last time I checked) Without being experts in legislative law & NEPA some of us are doing the best we can and this issue never seems to get less complicated w/each go-around. The devil is in the details (in bold below) and admittedly I'm no expert so please share!

sure there wasn't much of an opportunity to do anything at the last minute, that part is now public knowledge and I'm sure it didn't help when the Bill was actually named & dedicated (seemingly) after a Democratic Senator leaving his post. The teary-eyed pleading and retirement dedications before this vote surely didn't help either

I'd still like to see Obama give McCain one last swing and refuse to sign it with Oak Flat inclusion LOL -thanks for your time in advance cheers~

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Title XXX -SEC. 3003. SOUTHEAST ARIZONA LAND EXCHANGE
congress.gov/bill/113th-con…{%22search%22%3A[%22HR+3979%22]}

(6) Oak flat withdrawal area.--
--(A) Permits.--Subject to the provisions of this paragraph and notwithstanding any withdrawal of the Oak Flat Withdrawal Area from the mining, mineral leasing, or public land laws, the Secretary, upon enactment of this Act, shall issue to Resolution Copper--
........(i) if so requested by Resolution Copper, within 30 days of such request, a special use permit to carry out mineral exploration activities under the Oak Flat Withdrawal Area from existing drill pads located outside the Area, if the activities would not disturb the surface of the Area; and
........(ii) if so requested by Resolution Copper, within 90 days of such request, a special use permit to carry out mineral exploration activities within the Oak Flat Withdrawal Area (but not within the Oak Flat Campground), if the activities are conducted from a single exploratory drill pad which is located to reasonably minimize visual and noise impacts on the Campground.
--(B) Conditions.--Any activities undertaken in accordance with this paragraph shall be subject to such reasonable terms and conditions as the Secretary may require.
--(C) Termination.--The authorization for Resolution Copper to undertake mineral exploration activities under this paragraph shall remain in effect until the Oak Flat Withdrawal Area land is conveyed to Resolution Copper in accordance with this section.
(7) Costs.--As a condition of the land exchange under this section, Resolution Copper shall agree to pay, without compensation, all costs that are--
--(A) associated with the land exchange and any environmental review document under paragraph (9); and
--(B) agreed to by the Secretary.
(8) Use of federal land.--The Federal land to be conveyed to Resolution Copper under this section shall be available to Resolution Copper for mining and related activities subject to and in accordance with applicable Federal, State, and local laws pertaining to mining and related activities on land in private ownership.

(9) Environmental compliance.--
--(A) In general.--Except as otherwise provided in this section, the Secretary shall carry out the land exchange in accordance with the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (42 U.S.C. 4321 et seq.).
--(B) Environmental analysis.--Prior to conveying Federal land under this section, the Secretary shall prepare a single environmental impact statement under the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (42 U.S.C. 4321 et seq.), which shall be used as the basis for all decisions under Federal law related to the proposed mine and the Resolution mine plan of operations and any related major Federal actions significantly affecting the quality of the human rights-of-way, or approvals for the construction of associated power, water, transportation, processing, tailings, waste disposal, or other ancillary facilities.
--(C) Impacts on cultural and archeological resources.--The environmental impact statement prepared under subparagraph (B) shall--
........(i) assess the effects of the mining and related activities on the Federal land conveyed to Resolution Copper under this section on the cultural and archeological resources that may be located on the Federal land; and
........(ii) identify measures that may be taken, to the extent practicable, to minimize potential adverse impacts on those resources, if any.
--(D) Effect.--Nothing in this paragraph precludes the Secretary from using separate environmental review documents prepared in accordance with the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (42 U.S.C. 4321 et seq.) or other applicable laws for exploration or other activities not involving--
........(i) the land exchange; or
........(ii) the extraction of minerals in commercial quantities by Resolution Copper on or under the Federal land.

(10) Title transfer.--Not later than 60 days after the date of publication of the final environmental impact statement, the Secretary shall convey all right, title, and interest of the United States in and to the Federal land to Resolution Copper.
Manny Rangel · · PAYSON · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,788

Unless I read the final subsection (10) wrong, the Huff Post is correct:

(10) Title transfer.--Not later than 60 days after the date of publication of the final environmental impact statement, the Secretary shall convey all right, title, and interest of the United States in and to the Federal land to Resolution Copper.

That does seem to suggest we do have more opportunities to change part of the outcome of this whole fiasco.

The fight is not over, that is the rub. Keep signing the petitions, keep rousing the rabble and don't stop until Rio Tinto has come and gone.

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

Folks might want to read this book:

americanscientist.org/books…

http://www.utah.sierraclub.org/ogden/snowbasin-olympic-lie

At the end of the day the NEPA analysis and costs did not prevent the finial exchange but it sure took a long time for it to happen.

Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
Concerned Climbers of Arizona wrote: There is so much misinformation in this thread it's difficult to know where to begin, but the above statement is no longer true. Section 3003 of Title XXX of the NDAA (what the RCM land exchange is now) plainly states that a full environmental impact statement must be done by the Forest Service before any public land can be transferred to Resolution Copper. The practical implication of this is that we will collectively have several more years to fight this through NEPA and the courts before any of our public land is lost. Passage of this land exchange is clearly not good, but there is absolutely nothing that could have been done to prevent it. When omnibus bill packages are pre-negotiated in back rooms in the dark of night there is no public process in which to participate--and pieces of bad legislation that could not pass through Congress on their own merits get passed.
This is indeed encouraging news. What can climbers do to help the CCA at this point? Count me in.
kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530

I recently reviewed some past hearings and I echo Manny's concern. Resolution wants the public process to be extremely limited in time & ability to hold anything up, so here's my question for the CCA or any other expert:

Regardless of the NEPA study required as mentioned, and considering the context of this Bill as written, would the result of a required public review process not make any bit o'difference whether or not the mine proceeds?

My other question today was: What about the Oak Flat protections of PLO 1229(Eisenhower 1955) & PLO 5132 (Nixon 1971)?

NDAA Pg.1127 --see below:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(4) TERMS AND CONDITIONS.—The conveyances under this subsection shall be subject to such terms and conditions as the Secretary may require.
--(i) MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS.—
--(1) REVOCATION OF ORDERS; WITHDRAWAL.—
.......(A) REVOCATION OF ORDERS.—Any public land order that withdraws the Federal land from appropriation or disposal under a public land law shall be revoked to the extent necessary to permit disposal of the land.
.......(B) WITHDRAWAL.—On the date of enactment of this Act, if the Federal land or any Federal interest in the non-Federal land to be exchanged under subsection (c) is not withdrawn or segregated from entry and appropriation under a public land law (including mining and mineral leasing laws and the Geothermal Steam Act of 1970 (30 U.S.C. 1001 et seq.)),the land or interest shall be withdrawn, without further action required by the Secretary concerned, from entry and appropriation. The withdrawal shall be terminated—
--(i) on the date of consummation of the land exchange; or
--(ii) if Resolution Copper notifies the Secretary in writing that it has elected to withdraw from the land exchange pursuant to section 206(d) of the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976, as amended (43 U.S.C.1716(d)).

CJD · · Chino Valley, AZ · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 35

The public process has been going on for ten years and the only thing we have to show for it was the torpedoing of 6 million dollars and a state park made specifically for climbing. We tried our best to get something in return for this land grab but a tiny minority of AZ climbers screwed us out of it. They should be so proud. Where are Fred and curt when they can be here to bask in their glory? Manny, you are not included. I respect your efforts and reasons and your willingness to consider the options. This is a sad situation for all of us.

kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530
CJD wrote:The public process has been going on for ten years and the only thing we have to show for it was the torpedoing of 6 million dollars and a state park made specifically for climbing. We tried our best to get something in return for this land grab but a tiny minority of AZ climbers screwed us out of it. They should be so proud. Where are Fred and curt when they can be here to bask in their glory? Manny, you are not included. I respect your efforts and reasons and your willingness to consider the options. This is a sad situation for all of us.
wow...

wait for it..

.

.

.
Mike Gray · · Smoke Hole Canyon · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 391
Morgan Patterson wrote:https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-apache-land-grab/rnMfH0WL Don't forget about this one either folks... 95k votes. 5k more and Obama will have to respond directly...
Hey, thanks for that.... really needed a good, deep belly laugh this morning... even if it was a bitter one.

Anyone else notice a strange silence from one or two organizations that should be staging the same kind of 24-hour spectacles over this that are used to raise funds and gather members in places that aren't being given away by the federal government?

Is this not a good time to sell Jeeps or Chinese cams?
Concerned Climbers of Arizona · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
CJD wrote:The public process has been going on for ten years and the only thing we have to show for it was the torpedoing of 6 million dollars and a state park made specifically for climbing. We tried our best to get something in return for this land grab but a tiny minority of AZ climbers screwed us out of it. They should be so proud. Where are Fred and curt when they can be here to bask in their glory? Manny, you are not included. I respect your efforts and reasons and your willingness to consider the options. This is a sad situation for all of us.
Certainly winning the award for the most disingenuous post in this thread. To set the record straight, CJD and his misguided climbing cronies were actually paid by Resolution Copper Company to make it easier for Resolution to get Oak Flat and destroy it. Now, CJD blames the people who actually fought the good fight and opposed the land exchange to the bitter end. It takes a really special kind of ass#ole to do that.
Manny Rangel · · PAYSON · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 4,788

Mining is and always will be important. I have supported extracting copper but not in the manner RCM wants to do it. Changing their mining plan would cost them time and money to research and implement an alternative.

Access Fund has proffered another mining option and RCM dismissed it outright. With this process we can focus on lesser destructive practices like the type that AF proposed.

Whether RCM actually makes amends for their destructive intrusion into AZ, I don't know. But I'm willing to try. Our legislators completely ignored history and the law when they gave Oak Flat away. The simplest response and the most expensive is vote the bastards out.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

So, does hope change everything? Will Mr President reply to the 104,000 signature petition?

youtube.com/watch?v=lLVN3Tr…

CJD · · Chino Valley, AZ · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 35
Concerned Climbers of Arizona wrote: Certainly winning the award for the most disingenuous post in this thread. To set the record straight, CJD and his misguided climbing cronies were actually paid by Resolution Copper Company to make it easier for Resolution to get Oak Flat and destroy it. Now, CJD blames the people who actually fought the good fight and opposed the land exchange to the bitter end. It takes a really special kind of ass#ole to do that.
It takes a special type of coward to anonymously call somebody else and asshole.

The truth is we were NEVER in favor of helping Resolution get Oak Flat and NOTHING we did made that any easier. The fact that the land trade went through without any significant compensation for the climbing resources to be lost shows that we were right. We were working for climbers to get something in return in case we did lose it.

Climbers were a minor component of the overall mitigation plan but we were able to change that and have a significant commitment from the state legislature and state parks as well as over $6,000,000 from Resolution to build a new state park with climbing as the primary users. It was a done deal until a few people convinced the Governors office to change their mind. That is after the state legislature unanimously passed the legislation to create the park, the Governor (Nepalitano) signed the bill and Resolution agreed to pay and build roads etc.

This never should have been something that just a few individuals had to do but the Access Fund and a handful of people decided to ignore and even refused to consider. The AF and those people did nothing to save Oak Flat and cost the rest of us an amazing opportunity. That's the TRUTH.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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