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tying in direct at mid rope with this type of fig 8

Original Post
Joe Freeman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 355

So I want to be able to tie into the middle of an 8mm twin and half rated rope without any carabiner. I would then be leading on twins via the two halves (every piece clipped). Belayed on both halves by a mammut smart alpine. This way I can carry just one super light rope when back packing/traveling internationally and still climb a few short single pitch routes.
Essentially just taking a huge bite of rope and tying a figure eight. Then pass the loop through harness and follow through the whole knot again, finish with a safety. Anyone think an eight that is completely doubled(4 strands in knot instead of two) would be unsafe? I can't see any examples of this online. Though I find plenty with tripled ( cordolette knots) but none quadrupled. Can't imagine this would be bad but please speak up if you know better. In the pic my finger is where the harness would be.
If this is reasonably safe I can carry this 42g/m mammut phoenix superdry in the 70 meter length instead of a single. Obviously I would have to rap Down from any climb over 15 m and could only do routes at about 30 Meters in height or less.
Basically got this mammut phoenix superdry 8mm half/twin 70 meter rope and want to bring this for travel crag stops when I go overseas. Not an ideal setup for regular use but might be nice for going really light occasionally.

Alternatively I tie into the ends, but with the middle connected I think it would tangle more for the belayer (usually my wife).

PS I know they make super thin singles but I would rather fall on two 8mm than one thin single and the twin rope complements my 70meter for a rap line at a lower weight

Finished doubled fig 8

Scot Hastings · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 35

That certainly seems fine to me.

If you want to save a bit of rope, you can actually get away with a standard figure-8 (not doubled up). Essentially it's like tying a figure-8 on a bight but with your harness in the bight. To do this, thread half the rope through your harness, then do the figure-8 starter knot on both strands (double twist, poke the alien in the eye). The downside is that you have to a) feed 30m thru your harness tie ins, and b) feed 30m thru the alien's eye. The upside is 0.5m or more usable rope and a much smaller/cleaner knot.

Actually, even better. If you step through the eye, you'll achieve the same effect. Again, figure-8 on a bight, you just happen to be on the bight before you tie it. You'll just have the adjust the knot after to get it close to your harness.

You seem like a guy who values minimalism, so maybe it's worth the effort.

Joe Freeman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 355

WFSCOT,
I will try and play around with that knot and see how easy it is to do that. seems like it would be hard to do at the anchors maybe.

I am excited to try this crazy set up as it will make my pack a little smaller and 4.1 lbs lighter than using my 10.2mm rope.

MacM · · Tucson/Preskitt, AZ · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 675

I was going to recommend the Alpine Butterfly, but apparently it doesn't really matter "...with modern ropes.." So here you are, same principle applies to what you would like to achieve:

rockandice.com/lates-news/h…

Cheers,
Mac

Scot Hastings · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 35
Joe Freeman wrote:WFSCOT, I will try and play around with that knot and see how easy it is to do that. seems like it would be hard to do at the anchors maybe. I am excited to try this crazy set up as it will make my pack a little smaller and 4.1 lbs lighter than using my 10.2mm rope.
Yeah, untying at the anchors will likely suck a bit. You'll probably have to pull all the rope through the eye (vs trying to get yourself back out of the eye). Oh well. Still a cool party trick.
Muscrat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 3,625

Google 'Alpine Girth Hitch'. Take the bite in the center of the rope, pass it up through your belay loop, pass it over your head and behind you, step through, pull tight. Sounds crazy, but it works! We use it often with '3 on a rope'. Simple, fast, strong, (relatively) foolproof, and uses little rope.

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674

I too was interested in tying in the middle of a half rope for a short pitch. I figured the best place to ask was in the UK forum since the Brits climb on half ropes a lot.

And I remembered that, once upon a time, they sold 100 meter ropes where it was intended to tie into the middle. The idea was that you wouldn't have a knot to pull down when rappelling. But, I see that as just a big tangle and am not surprised you don't see 300 foot ropes anymore.

Here's what I found:
ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php…
ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php…

Currently, when doing this, I tie in with a bowline on bight with stopper knot or a rethreaded overhand on bight with stopper knot. Although, I have occasionally used a bowline on a bight and clipped the loop.

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

I'm pretty sure there's a neat way to tie in with a bowline on a bight mid-rope where you 1. pull the bight thru the harness 2. Form the "eye" 3. push about 4' of rope thru the eye 4. flip the bight around your whole body.

I don't have a rope and harness here with me to try it out.

In the diagram below, in step 2, you would be flipping the bight over your head and stepping thru it, then finishing the knot like in step 4.

aikibujin · · Castle Rock, CO · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 300

Your knot is fine. You can also tie a bowling on a bight mid-rope, without having to feed 30m of rope through your belay loop first. I use the same knot tied at the end of the rope with a different method when I'm falling a lot on single pitch route.

people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig…

Edit to add: the above post beat me to it.

BTW, I've done exactly what you're planning, climbing a short route with just one of my 70m doubles, tied in the middle. However, I was still doing double rope technique, and having two strands with the same color was really confusing... luckily the pitches were short and my belayer can see which strand I was about to clip.

Travis Weil · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 0

I tend to tie in with this knot when tying in to the middle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfuuuW-2fes

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Larry S wrote:I'm pretty sure there's a neat way to tie in with a bowline on a bight mid-rope where you 1. pull the bight thru the harness 2. Form the "eye" 3. push about 4' of rope thru the eye 4. flip the bight around your whole body. I don't have a rope and harness here with me to try it out. In the diagram below, in step 2, you would be flipping the bight over your head and stepping thru it, then finishing the knot like in step 4.
Presumably you have considered the slight awkwardness of untying this hanging from the chains at the top of a route?
I just use a bowline tied on the bight of rope without a stopper and lock the end loop with a karabiner onto the knot loop.
jTaylor · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 50

figure eight on a bite or alpine butterfly. bring a carabiner rather than tying directly through your harness and life will be easier.

Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30

alpine butterfly. Easy to tie, easy to untie, and you can give and take slack from it (moving yourself in the line) very easily.

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
Jim Titt wrote: Presumably you have considered the slight awkwardness of untying this hanging from the chains at the top of a route? I just use a bowline tied on the bight of rope without a stopper and lock the end loop with a karabiner onto the knot loop.
Yeah, you're right, I'm running on an assumption of routes that top out (that's what i typically climb), so i didn't consider having to escape the rope while hanging. Has a definite advantage over on suggestion to thread half the rope thru a figure 8 follow thru above. Lesser advantages uses minimal rope, and the knot isn't huge, but those might not be big concerns.
Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
Rob D. wrote:alpine butterfly. Easy to tie, easy to untie, and you can give and take slack from it (moving yourself in the line) very easily.
How're you tying in with an alpine butterfly? Only way i know hot to tie it it creates a loop, but how do you get that loop threaded thru your harness?
Brian Monetti · · New York, NY · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 322
Larry S wrote: How're you tying in with an alpine butterfly? Only way i know hot to tie it it creates a loop, but how do you get that loop threaded thru your harness?
You will need to connect to your belay loop with a locker. This is how guides such as RMI set up teams for glacier travel.
Rob D · · Queens, NY · Joined May 2011 · Points: 30
Brian Monetti wrote: You will need to connect to your belay loop with a locker. This is how guides such as RMI set up teams for glacier travel.
yeah sorry i skipped that part. You can also girth hitch into the middle of the rope by stepping through, but it would be less fun to fall on that (or more specifically, to untie)
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

'Alpine Girth Hitch'!!!!! Simple, easy, cannot come lose or untied. 8's / bowlines for this senario, all a waste of time and rope by my measure.

Joe Freeman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 355

Thanks for all the ideas. I will play with all of these simulating on the ground and clipped to anchors and see what suits me best. Glad to hear others have been doing this also. I prefer not to use biners on the belay loop or harness as they could load funny, but I use them on my silent partner and they seem to stay pretty well aligned there.

I appreciate all the input!

Scot Hastings · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 35
Craig Childre wrote:'Alpine Girth Hitch'!!!!! Simple, easy, cannot come lose or untied. 8's / bowlines for this senario, all a waste of time and rope by my measure.
Any concern that the rope could slide on a serious whipper?
Joe Freeman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 355
wfscot wrote: Any concern that the rope could slide on a serious whipper?
That is my concern too. Alpine low angle okay, but if vertical leading seems like it might.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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