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double clove hitches

Original Post
matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155

Hey I saw this set up on: dumbanchors.blogspot.com/

two clove hitches
I sometimes use this method when I use a large block as a belay anchor. It the block is too big to easily throw a loop around, I walk around the block then form the loop with the two clove hitches as shown here. The only differences is that put a figure eight on a bight to tighten the loop and to use it as a master point.

Is there a better way to do this? Is the double clove hitches a problem?

Preston Rhea · · Mammoth Lakes · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 1,454

Bowline?

Zac St Jules · · New Hampshire · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 1,188

The same people who think this is a problem, likely also have a problem with the quad anchor.

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

i don't see the problem with your set-up. but then again, my tolerance for risk is quite a bit higher than other MPers. i think the issue in the photo is that it would be better (fewer links in the chain) to just tie a fig 8/bowline follow through around the tree. if the boulder or tree was too big to sling i'd do the same thing.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
matt c. wrote:Hey I saw this set up on: dumbanchors.blogspot.com/
lol, Carderock and Great Falls must be a paradise of dumbass TR anchors to take pictures of! Possibly better than CT and I say this because #1) their are a ton of really anal topropers in CT that may only be 5.6 climbers but have anchor building skills of a 5.15 climber and #2)this DC area is the epitome of shit climbing. Every time I go there(family visits) I start thinking that its time to give up roped climbing and just go for it(in fact I did last time with Geoff?, the dude who got whacked in the head by his crazy partner)

bolts would really help that shitshow out
Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800

Tensionless hitch?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

The text for that double clove hitch photo is

"Leading candidate for worst idea ever: two clove hitches to a carabiner instead of a knot."

No elaboration from the Dumbass site proprietor, so we're left a bit in the dark about why this is worse than, say the failure to inspect the O-rings on the Challenger or a Land War in Asia.

I do things sorta like that all the time when rigging regular belay anchors, the difference being that one of the knots is an Alpine butterfly and the other a clove hitch. Perhaps my anchors are Dumbass anchors too.

That said, I agree that the situation pictured is not a place where the adjustability of the clove hitch is even remotely decisive, and there are many simpler and so at least abstractly safer ways to hitch a rope to a tree.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

Re-threaded figure 8. When you're done it looks like a figure 8 on a bight with the tree in the bight.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
Robert Cort wrote:Tensionless hitch?
Hands down the strongest anchor you can build on a tree with a rope. Since it relies on friction wraps, it retains the full strength of the rope.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Stich wrote: Hands down the strongest anchor you can build on a tree with a rope. Since it relies on friction wraps, it retains the full strength of the rope.
The implication being that a Fig. 8 loop or bowline are somehow not strong enough???
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

that anchor pic with 2 cloves is fine on dynamic rope ...

they even used a stopper and a big beefy oval biner ... the only thing i could even possibly suggest would be to use a 3 stage autolocking biner to prevent the slim possibility that the gate would get pressed in (note how the locking gate is faced away from the ground as well)

alot of these "anchor freak out folks" need to get off their high horse about anchors that while not absolutely AMGA/ACMG perfect, arent the ones that are going to kill you

as i said in the jive azz anchor thread, these folks make these pages not to "educate" folks or make the world a "safer place" but to nitpick and whine IMO

if they REALLY want to do the right thing the would have a POLITE conversation with the parties involved first

you see those types of folks at the crag all the time ... most of em cant climb their way out of a wet paper bag, are too afraid of their own shadow to lead, and have minimal experience beyond setting up a few TR anchors

however they do shout very loudly about how "safe" they are and unsafe everyone else is

;)

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
Gunkiemike wrote: The implication being that a Fig. 8 loop or bowline are somehow not strong enough???
No, they are both great. I just love tensionless hitches, man.
marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20
Stich wrote: I just love tensionless hitches, man.
Odds that Stich has this exact same thing written on his S&M profile?
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
marty funkhouser wrote: Odds that Stich has this exact same thing written on his S&M profile?
Marty? That you?

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
bearbreeder wrote:that anchor pic with 2 cloves is fine on dynamic rope ... they even used a stopper and a big beefy oval biner ... the only thing i could even possibly suggest would be to use a 3 stage autolocking biner to prevent the slim possibility that the gate would get pressed in (note how the locking gate is faced away from the ground as well) alot of these "anchor freak out folks" need to get off their high horse about anchors that while not absolutely AMGA/ACMG perfect, arent the ones that are going to kill you as i said in the jive azz anchor thread, these folks make these pages not to "educate" folks or make the world a "safer place" but to nitpick and whine IMO if they REALLY want to do the right thing the would have a POLITE conversation with the parties involved first you see those types of folks at the crag all the time ... most of em cant climb their way out of a wet paper bag, are too afraid of their own shadow to lead, and have minimal experience beyond setting up a few TR anchors however they do shout very loudly about how "safe" they are and unsafe everyone else is ;)
nice, thanks for climbing down off your high horse to ejukate us once again!
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385

The advantage I see would be that this anchor allows for a fairly quick adjustment to the anchor arm length without having to tie and untie any knots.

The issue I have is that more gear is used than is need to accomplish the goal. How much rope is needed to secure that tree as an anchor? A carabiner has to be included as well. Gear and/or inches that could be used elsewhere. You now have multiple adjustments that may need to be made. A carabiner that you need to be vigilant of what the orientation is, possible cross loading, or gate manipulation.

In the above situation... I would wrap the tree and use a backed up bowline or retraced eight. I try to keep things quick and efficient, and only having to double check a single knot seems pretty K.I.S.S. to me.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Miike wrote: nice, thanks for climbing down off your high horse to ejukate us once again!
no worries ... dont want you "learning" off those sites on yr next great TR adventure do we now

;)
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2

As dumb-ass anchors go, that one looks reasonable to me. Ok, I'm assuming that is climbing rope -- which we generally treat as acceptable as a non-redundant part of the system. I'd like to have a second carabiner used, and there might be more efficient (less gear) way of doing things -- but to be dumb-ass, you really need something that is clearly unsafe. Heck, it is even a big tree that looks well-rooted.

If I came up a pitch to find I was being belayed off that as an anchor I would not be upset.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
matt c. wrote:Hey I saw this set up on: dumbanchors.blogspot.com/ I sometimes use this method when I use a large block as a belay anchor. It the block is too big to easily throw a loop around, I walk around the block then form the loop with the two clove hitches as shown here. The only differences is that put a figure eight on a bight to tighten the loop and to use it as a master point. Is there a better way to do this? Is the double clove hitches a problem?
A bowline and a stopper would be neater, but I would suggest it would be better for the tree if you walked around it twice, then tied the knot. This stops the rope rubbing if it moves and spreads the load.
Zach Alles · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 5

As I peruse through forums of Mountain Project, I look and see a rope that looks similar to mine and realize that that's my rope and my anchor, and all of these people are shitting all over it haha. Was this the most effective anchor system? nope. Could it have been safer, simpler? yep. Was I in a rush to get some climbs in before work? yep. So I threw some shit together. It wasn't dangerous, it held fine, and I'm here to tell the tale. I think it's hilarious how someone will go through the trouble to take some pictures and throw them on the internet, but lacks the basic social decency to introduce themselves and express their concerns. Well that's DC for you I guess, self-interested assholes pretending like they're important. I mean christ it's carderock, if you fall it's only like a 20 ft drop ;D But thanks for the tips everybody, I'm curious about that tensionless hitch.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Budd, it was second-hand by the time it got here. Your beef, if you have one, is with the Dumbass anchors guy.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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