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Cordelette as a Single Strand

Original Post
Greeley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 15

I was reading through Chris McNamara's book on big wall climbing and, when using a cordelette, he recommends to "make sure the cordelette is not a single continuous loop and instead is a single strand with two figure-eights on a bite at either end." (See photo.)

Chris Mac's single-strand cordelette

This is the first time I have seen a cordelette tied like this. I don't aid climb, is this common in aid climbing? I was taught to make a cordelette by tying it into a continuous loop, and that's how I've always seen it done by others.

Regardless, the more I think about it, the single-strand method seems to make more sense to me for regular multi-pitch climbing. I've heard of instances where climbers needed to untie their continuous-loop cordelette in order to reach a faraway gear placement for an anchor. Certainly this is the exception rather than the rule, but if/when it arises, it seems like the single-strand cordelette would save a ton of time (i.e., prying apart atomically fused double fishermans). If all the anchor points are close together like usual, you could just clip both ends into one point (like in the photo).

Anyway, I see minimal downside to using the single-strand method, but leave it to the Mountain Project community to point out the flaws in anything. I know in the end it comes down to personal preference, but I'm curious to find out what people see as the potential disadvantages to a cordelette with a single strand vs. a continuous loop?

I'm sure some of you will be tempted to tell me just to build the anchor with the climbing rope or slings or my wiener or whatever other method you prefer, but for the sake of this exercise, let's just assume the route demands a cordelette to build anchors.

Thanks.

justgoodenough · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41

The way Chris McNamara has it pictured, the strength of the anchor is the same as a loop since both ends are clipped to the same piece.

The strength does change when you're only looping one strand into the piece since you'll theoretically cut your maximum force in half. This matters more if you're using 6 mm perlon vs 7 mm perlon. Alternate Set-up

For me, I've switched my cordelettes to this since it doesn't hurt and I won't have to tie clove hitches to keep the knot from sliding around and getting in the way during set-up. It'll be easier to anchor 4 pieces together.

Other people have called this 'snake eyes', 'rabbit eyes', and a web-o-lette so that should help you find more information on the topic. There's good discussion of cord strength here:
Opinions on 6 mm kevlar cord.

Marty C · · Herndon, VA · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 70

I have been using your suggested single strand cordalette scheme for many years now.

I have found it to be a much more flexible system than the tied loop cordalette.

It can be easily used in either mode without any untying and retying of knots (a great time saver).

In the single strand configuration, one can more easily connect up to 4 pieces of pro than the loop system.

When gear is widely spread out, and available slings and/or climbing rope is in short supply, the single strand again gives you more options to reach and connect the pro.

I have used in to girth hitch a tree far away from belay stance and bring that tree into the belay anchor where a double strand girth hitched would not have reached.

As stated by others earlier, one needs to understand its weaknesses (I.e. Single strand configurations are not as strong as double strand configurations).

I think its greater flexibility outweighs its weaknesses.

David Lyons · · Forest Falls, CA · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 120

That looks pretty smart to me - your arguments make total sense! I'll have to try this next time I'm building anchors.

Or I'll just use the "weiner" method- Ha ha ha!!!! Cracked me up!

Padraig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 100

I've transitioned over to the single strand method to be give myself the reach without having to carry such a long cord when that is necessary. The one negative (though it's not a major decision-altering thing) I've noticed is that it there isn't a secure top shelf available like the double-strand unless you shorten it like the photo you have.

Greeley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 15
Padraig wrote:there isn't a secure top shelf available like the double-strand unless you shorten it like the photo you have.
That's a good observation. I hadn't thought of that. Like you said, it may not be a deal breaker, but good to keep in mind.
wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
Greeley wrote: That's a good observation. I hadn't thought of that. Like you said, it may not be a deal breaker, but good to keep in mind.
Why would clipping the center loop and one of the outside legs not work for you?
Paul Hutton · · Nephi, UT · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 740

I've been practicing with this method and another that is similar quite a bit, lately. Clipping a 30ft strand of 7mm cordalette to anchors and pulling the strands between the anchors into bights, masterpointing them with a figure eight and using the rest of the cordalette tails to fisherman safety knot immediately over that 8 just like you would when tying your harness into a toprope or before leading. A LOT easier and more customizable (length) than fisherman knotting the ends to close a strand of cordalette into a loop.

I also fold the single strand in half and clip the two parallel strands through my anchor carabiners to add to strength and ease of mind (hanging off two strands at each carabiner versus one skinny strand at each carabiner....shudders), provided there's enough length for a reasonable master point, and hopefully your safety knot for redundancy.

The method of tying a strand into a large loop, then folding it enough times to get the length you want to adjust for different anchors (toprope, or an anchor for sending a sport route) is definitely NOT a bad method, either. Fold the large loop to make a bundle, put symmetrical knots in the middle where the masterpoint is, and near the bolts if you have enough length. You can have it ready and racked before you leave the ground, and simply clip it at the top of the route. Vouala!(spelling?) Also, if you're wanting to bag routes that are close together, just walk the anchor along the cliff to the next nearby anchor. The only annoyance is that the bundle might be so thick, that tying overhand knots to isolate strands to add redundancy might be difficult because of the shortness and thickness of the bundle. To fix that problem, a thinner diameter would be better.

Greeley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 15
wivanoff wrote: Why would clipping the center loop and one of the outside legs not work for you?
It would work, but it wouldn't be as redundant. If the pro connected to the center loop or the one single leg failed, then you'd only be backed up by one piece instead of two.
Marty C · · Herndon, VA · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 70

If one absolutely needs a "shelf" one can be improvised on a single strand cordalette by placing a carabiner through the masterpoint knot and using that carabiner as the shelf for clipping in your second or whatever.

a photo from the paper "Anchors in Earnest" by Cyril Shokoples of Rescue Dynamics is attached showing such a set up.

using the masterpoint knot w/biner as shelf

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

Splitting a hair that really isn't an issue to anchor safety.

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 674
Greeley wrote: It would work, but it wouldn't be as redundant. If the pro connected to the center loop or the one single leg failed, then you'd only be backed up by one piece instead of two.
How many levels of redundancy do you need?

You could say the same thing about having only two loops in your masterpoint when using that alternate setup.

I don't see anything wrong with that alternate setup. Although, personally I don't pre-tie any knots in my cordelette. I bring the free ends together and incorporate them into the masterpoint knot. If I use that alternate setup, I'll clove the ends to the anchor carabiners.

But, mostly, I just use my climbing rope.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Marty C wrote:If one absolutely needs a "shelf" one can be improvised on a single strand cordalette by placing a carabiner through the masterpoint knot and using that carabiner as the shelf for clipping in your second or whatever. a photo from the paper "Anchors in Earnest" by Cyril Shokoples of Rescue Dynamics is attached showing such a set up.
the disadvantage with the carabiner in knot shelf is that you generally need to put it in before the anchor is weighted ..

a normal shelf can be used anytime and is just there

there are ways to build a 3 point cord anchor with a proper shelf with less use of cord than the OPs pic

someones actually already posted it up

as to using snake/rabbit cord ... its fine IF you understand the strength limitations of single strand knotted cord .... use it only on 7mm+ or tech cord

andy-kirkpatrick.com/articl…

the other thing to remember is that on 3 point "single strand" anchors ... most of the setups have a double strand on one leg ... this leg will take much/most of the weight due to lower stretch .... so its wise to place that strand on your strongest piece

;)
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Marty C wrote:If one absolutely needs a "shelf" one can be improvised on a single strand cordalette by placing a carabiner through the masterpoint knot and using that carabiner as the shelf for clipping in your second or whatever. a photo from the paper "Anchors in Earnest" by Cyril Shokoples of Rescue Dynamics is attached showing such a set up.
Is that safe? I have given up doing this as I have concerns over how strong the knot is once the main powerpoint carabiner is removed. If the second was then left hanging on the carabiner in the knot and she slipped off the ledge, might the knot pull through? Or maybe this is why he says have an instructor show you where exactly to place the carabiner - which in itself sounds worrying in the dark and rain and not having slept for 24 hours. Or am I just being paranoid? Thanks.
David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70
Turner wrote:Keep a carabiner (preferably weighted) on the master point at all times when using the shelf/knot.

Always a good idea. But.....
I can imagine the leader removing her locker from the master point and climbing. Leaving nothing in the master point rather easily.
justgoodenough · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41
David Coley wrote: Always a good idea. But..... I can imagine the leader removing her locker from the master point and climbing. Leaving nothing in the master point rather easily.
I usually clove hitch into the racking biner for the cordelette. This means I leave it behind when I'm starting the next pitch (when leading in blocks) and solves this problem.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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