Half Rope Questions

I am thinking about buying some half ropes and I have a few questions for people who have experience using them. I would be using them primarily on long trad routes with only one follower. (Yes, I will practice on shorter routes first.) I feel like I'm pretty well aware of the main things to watch for when using half ropes and the differences between half ropes and singles -- i.e., less durability, lower friction, half vs. twin technique, possible rope-management issues, learning belay technique when used as half ropes.

I know general info related to half ropes has been discussed on this forum before, but my main question is whether there are any unique half-rope issues (primarily safety issues) I should be aware of before leaving the ground?

For example, my first thought was whether I would need a new belay device, but I looked it up and my ATC-Guide is rated down to 7.7 mm (I'm considering ropes in the mid-8 mm region). I was also wondering whether my rappel backup method would still work on the skinnier ropes, but I figured another wrap or two with my Klemheist or Prusik should do the trick (please let me know if this assumption is wrong).

A couple other questions along those lines: If I use the climbing rope as a part of a system (e.g., building an anchor, tying into the anchor, tying a munter hitch, self-rescue), I imagine I would use both ropes together (in other words, twin technique) when building each element of the system, right? Are there any issues related to self-rescue that would be different from using a single rope? Anything else?

Anyway, those are the types of issues I'm most concerned about. Thanks in advance.

ATC guide is a great device for half/doubles.

When you use a prusik for a rappel, you are generally wrapping both of the ropes with a single prusik. Usually the same number of wraps works with a single vs a pair of half/doubles, but you should generally check before launching off anyway.

Don't use both ropes together for anchor building/tying into the anchor. You will make a big impossible mess of terribleness. One rope is totally fine. Sometimes it's convenient to use both ropes separately for different parts of an anchor system, but not together.

Hey Greeley. I have some experience with half ropes but have never had to use them for a rescue but as long as they are not rubbing over any sharp edges, I wouldn't hesitate to use just one rope if you had to escape the belay and that way you could use the other rope to bail if you are on long routes. They are still rated for several (depending on what rope you decide on) fall factor 2 falls. Most belay devices with the v-slot and the teeth would handle most half ropes, especially if used together. I don't know your auto blocker rappel backup method, but if you use a kleimheist or prusik you can play with how many wraps you need to be able to smoothly descend and catch you if you fall. Some of this depends on what size and how stiff the cord you use is.

All that being said, I hated the cluster of rope management that half ropes add to the mix when multi-pitching. You have to be very anal with how you deal with the rope whether you stack it on ledges, or if you flake it over your personal anchor attachment point. I never felt like the advantages with using half ropes was any better than using a single rope and carrying a tagline. I felt like the single rope was much easier, quicker, and created less of a chance of a cluster than having half ropes. At the end it really is just a personal preference of mine and I am sure someone might really prefer half ropes and swear by it. There is no right or wrong answer here, this is just an opinion to consider. If you still want to go with half ropes, I have 2 70m petzl dragonflies (Blue and Orange) that have never been used or even been outside (bought about 1 year ago). I always climbed on my friends 60 meter half-ropes then bought mine and realized I didn't like it and for me a single rope is better (Will Gadd has some good comments on why he doesn't use half ropes anymore). I would sell you both of them for a total of $200. Good luck with the decision.

I'd recommend your Prusik cord be 5mm or skinnier for use with half ropes. Also, if you're rappelling on a single strand (e.g. simul-rapping) you might want to double up on carabiners to add a bit more friction. Other than that, things should handle pretty much the same with your ATC guide.

When building anchors with the rope, a single half rope is plenty strong enough. You can build the anchor with just one rope, or you can use both ropes in various combinations. There are lots of options, and you just need to figure out what works best for you.

As far as self-rescue, the only thing that comes to mind is that it's rougher on your hands when pulling on a skinny rope in a haul system. So unless it's a quick and minimal assist, you'll be better off rigging it so you can haul with your body weight.

Greeley wrote:I am thinking about buying some half ropes and I have a few questions for people who have experience using them. I would be using them primarily on long trad routes with only one follower. (Yes, I will practice on shorter routes first.) I feel like I'm pretty well aware of the main things to watch for when using half ropes and the differences between half ropes and singles -- i.e., less durability, lower friction, half vs. twin technique, possible rope-management issues, learning belay technique when used as half ropes.

One place you're wrong is about durability, which depends on the specifics of rope construction. Something made to endure, like Mammut Genesis, is going to last longer and wear better than many thin singles that are optimized for lightness. I'm a long-time Genesis user and have never worn one out. I retire them after it seems as if I've been using the ropes for too long (> 5 years), but they always look fine. Maybe I've just been lucky though.

Greeley wrote: I know general info related to half ropes has been discussed on this forum before, but my main question is whether there are any unique half-rope issues (primarily safety issues) I should be aware of before leaving the ground? For example, my first thought was whether I would need a new belay device, but I looked it up and my ATC-Guide is rated down to 7.7 mm (I'm considering ropes in the mid-8 mm region).

I think there most definitely can be belay concerns, and the extreme ends of manufacturer's ratings for their devices are highly questionable in my opinion. I suggest you do a single strand free-hanging rappel (you might want to be belayed for this test---use the other rope). If you feel in solid control, then your device is at least minimally effective. If you are struggling for control, then just imagine how hard it will be to control, much less hold, a high fall-factor fall.

I don't think most devices would pass this test for most people. You hear folks speaking about increasing friction for rappelling by doubling the carabiners used to attach the device to the harness, and then they turn around an belay with a single carabiner, even though the forces they'll potentially have to control belaying are far greater than rappelling loads.

Although assisted braking devices have some very peculiar and potentially worrisome performance characteristics---the genre is really still in its infancy---I still think they should be carefully considered for half-rope belaying. Unfortunately, half ropes are a niche within a niche, and I think most assisted braking devices that accommodate two ropes are primarily designed with twin ropes, not half ropes, in mind. In particular, any device that ties up one hand for keeping the device feeding slack is not going to be great for half-rope belaying. My personal opinion is that this leaves just the Alpine Technology Alpine Up as the only really good option, but there is plenty of contention out there on this topic.

Greeley wrote:I was also wondering whether my rappel backup method would still work on the skinnier ropes, but I figured another wrap or two with my Klemheist or Prusik should do the trick (please let me know if this assumption is wrong).

Shouldn't be a problem.

Greeley wrote:A couple other questions along those lines: If I use the climbing rope as a part of a system (e.g., building an anchor, tying into the anchor, tying a munter hitch, self-rescue), I imagine I would use both ropes together (in other words, twin technique) when building each element of the system, right?

I never do this. Really, never. I do often use the ropes separately for different parts of the anchor. Sometimes I just use one rope for the anchor and leave the other rope totally unencumbered. It depends on the situation.

Greeley wrote:Are there any issues related to self-rescue that would be different from using a single rope? Anything else? Anyway, those are the types of issues I'm most concerned about. Thanks in advance.

A longer answer than I'm able to give here is called for, but almost everything about self-rescue is made easier by having two ropes.

The prior comments have covered most of what I would say, so I'll skip that.

Definitely test your setup for rappeling, though. The smaller ropes will be harder to control, especially with extra weight (e.g. a pack) and when wet. You may find (as I do) that you'll want to have gloves and might use a backup more frequently than you might with a thicker rope. I actually had a situation last year where the ropes (8.4mm doubles) were wet/icy and I wasn't able to completely stop my rappel towards the end of the rope. Fortunately everything was ok, but it was a bit spooky to say the least.

To add to previous comments... you might consider getting ropes rated as both doubles AND twins, which many are these days. This way you can use them whichever way is best for the situation.

I find I use them as twins about 3/4 of the time and doubles 1/4. YMMV.

Petzl Reverso 4 is better, and I think likely safer, than an ATC-Guide for twins/doubles. I have and use both: the ATC-Guide for single ropes, occasional sport climbing, top roping, etc. I use a Reverso 4 exclusively with twins or doubles, because it has better control. Try rappelling on each device and this will become immediately clear on skinny ropes (Beal Ice Floss, winter clothing kit and pack, and an ATC-Guide is an exciting combination on rappel - I can't imagine trying to rap on 1 strand). I got a Reverso 4 for my wife to hopefully help if/when she should have to catch a fall while I'm leading. The Reverso wears out much faster than an ATC-Guide and doesn't handle really fat old ropes as well, so I limit the use to doubles/twins.

Other devices to consider: Petzl Reverso 3 is pretty similar to the Reverso 4 in build. The original Reverso is supposedly terrible for friction/control (Petzl made an Reversino specifically for skinny ropes), and I've never used a Reverso 2.

As RGold has pointed out, there are other devices worth consideration as well, beyond the scope of my post.

rgold wrote: Something made to endure, like Mammut Genesis, is going to last longer and wear better than many thin singles that are optimized for lightness. I'm a long-time Genesis user and have never worn one out. I retire them after it seems as if I've been using the ropes for too long (> 5 years), but they always look fine. Maybe I've just been lucky though.

You're not just lucky - I've had the same experience with the Genesis.

In regards to using half ropes individually, like RG, I also do this all the time. Unlike twins, half ropes are designed for that.

One thing to consider, since it sounds like you're in the market for getting two ropes at once, is a system I've used for many years: One thin single, and one true half rope, used as a doubles system.

This gives you a lot of versatility. You can use the single sometimes when you just want one rope, and then use them together when you want doubles.

My current version of this is one Genesis and one Joker.

GO

+1 for durability of the 8.5 Mammut Geneis. Nearly half the weight is in the sheath. These ropes are workhorses.

+1 for half/twins. Many halves are dual-rated. Having both options is a big plus imo.

Getting comfortable belaying two ropes is the crux. Just practice and be more on your game belaying than you ever have. I personally really like the increased 'demands' of giving a good belay with halves.

The latter-model Reversos and The ATCs are good. Don't have any experience with other devices.

Some good things for me to consider. Thanks for the input, everyone.

Mike wrote:you might consider getting ropes rated as both doubles AND twins, which many are these days.

My thought is rather that I have chosen to own a set of half-ropes which is not test-approved also as twins.

Be glad to have someone with expert understanding give me some input on this.

My rationale is that in my climbing I find it much more important to have the dual use of a half-rope as a single rope - (rather than as a pair of twins).

I'm guessing that I half-rope also rated as a twin would likelier be "stretchier" than a half-rope not rated as a twin. Likely more stretch in a fall than most single ropes.

Since my use of one or two half-rope is often on rock less than vertical, more stretch implies more likely for me to hit something below if I fall.

But perhaps I'm missing something.

Ken

rgold wrote:I think there most definitely can be belay concerns ... I suggest you do a single strand free-hanging rappel ...

European climbers often climb multi-pitch using double-rope techique. But I know at least two very experienced leaders who routinely clip both half-ropes to the first protection above the belay (in Europe this is often a bolt).

Because they are afraid that their belayer might lose control if they had to catch a high fall factor on a (thinner) single half-rope.
. . . (I have pointed out that assuming the first protection holds,
. . . . this practice still might result in spinal injuries).

Ken

P.S. Also I have noticed that several experienced Euro multi-pitch leaders are "unconstrained" in their handling of double-ropes: Just stack them as if they were twin ropes, then "flip the pancake" if the same climber is leading the next pitch. Unless they think there would be unusual communication problems with sorting out a belay-rope-tangle encountered in the middle of the next pitch.

For lead belaying, I'd consider 2 identical carabiners to start. This will give more friction but not interfere with the dynamics of the belay. We used it all second half of this season without any issues. My wife had no issues paying out with this method, but felt a lot better about holding me if I were to fall.

I'm running 8.0mm ropes, and my next set will probably be a little thicker. 8.2-8.4mm would be the sweet spot for me for weight and control. The weight savings of the 8mm is nice and if the weight difference between the two of us was a little less, I'd definitely replace them with 8mm ropes.

Durability isn't necessarily true. there is generally more sheath on doubles, so they tend to last just as long.

I suppose I'd feel safer if I had a sheath tear and core hernia on a 10.5mm rope than a 8mm rope, but once you have a core shot the rope is done anyway. I've yet to damage the sheath on the two sets of doubles i've owned.

As far as self rescue. this is where doubles can be a huge advantage. The ropes are only half rated for falls and even then they hold multiple factor 2 falls. So for any static application, one rope is more than enough. If you can take one rope out of the system you've got a huge advantage with the free rope.

Generally I tie into anchors with separate knots but occasionally I get lazy and just put a double clove into the anchor. I don't recall ever belaying with doubles off a munter, even though I do it a lot with my singles. I suppose i'd just double the munter if I had to.

Oh, and DO NOT BRING YOUR ROPES UP SEPARATELY when belaying the second. Bring up all the slack in one stack. My partner was driving me nuts with this because we'd have to restack every pitch. If they come up at the same time, tangles won't usually happen.

Greeley wrote:I am thinking about buying some half ropes and I have a few questions for people who have experience using them. I would be using them primarily on long trad routes with only one follower. (Yes, I will practice on shorter routes first.) I feel like I'm pretty well aware of the main things to watch for when using half ropes and the differences between half ropes and singles -- i.e., less durability, lower friction, half vs. twin technique, possible rope-management issues, learning belay technique when used as half ropes. I know general info related to half ropes has been discussed on this forum before, but my main question is whether there are any unique half-rope issues (primarily safety issues) I should be aware of before leaving the ground? For example, my first thought was whether I would need a new belay device, but I looked it up and my ATC-Guide is rated down to 7.7 mm (I'm considering ropes in the mid-8 mm region). I was also wondering whether my rappel backup method would still work on the skinnier ropes, but I figured another wrap or two with my Klemheist or Prusik should do the trick (please let me know if this assumption is wrong). A couple other questions along those lines: If I use the climbing rope as a part of a system (e.g., building an anchor, tying into the anchor, tying a munter hitch, self-rescue), I imagine I would use both ropes together (in other words, twin technique) when building each element of the system, right? Are there any issues related to self-rescue that would be different from using a single rope? Anything else? Anyway, those are the types of issues I'm most concerned about. Thanks in advance.

The primary difficulty in switching from a single to halves is not less durability, new belay devices or less friction, it's more complication. It gets complicated to feed out slack on one strand of rope while trying to ensure the other strand is of the correct length and so on and so fourth. It also requires you stack the ropes separately most of the time, otherwise as the length of each rope changes during a pitch (and it will), the ropes can become entangled at the belay if stacked together.

I would skip halves. They are overrated for all but the most wondering of lines. You are better off with twins IMO. Much less complicated, far easier to catch falls on, and most of the same benefits. The best option might be to get a rope rated as a twin and half, then use them as a twin most of the time and switch to halves when you really need the benefit of halves.

20 kN wrote: It also requires you stack the ropes separately most of the time, otherwise as the length of each rope changes during a pitch (and it will), the ropes can become entangled at the belay if stacked together.

I suspect I've been using half ropes for longer than most folks on this site have been climbing, and this is not true in my experience. I always pile and stack the ropes together (except on the ground at the first pitch) and I have never had a tangle occur while taking in or feeding out ropes unequally. The tangles I've gotten occur during belay changeovers and so are related to how the ropes were stacked by the belayer who was bringing up the second.

I've also never had any serious tangling from ropes piled in the correct feeding order on a ledge. All the problems I've seen come from ledge piles flipped because the same person is leading consecutive pitches and ropes flaked over a tie-in.

For this reason, I always re-pile ropes on a ledge if the same person is going to lead consecutive pitches. The belayer can almost always do this while the leader is re-racking, in which case no time is lost at all. I've also taken to ignoring current "wisdom" about flaking ropes over a tie in, and instead of making graduated loops, many of which necessarily have to be way out of reach, I try to make lots of small loops whose bottoms are all accessible while belaying. This makes it easier to intervene when one loop tries to capture others.

I've said this before to general merriment at my noobishness, but I've found Metolius rope hooks to work very well for managing belays at stances without a ledge to pile the ropes on.

I was wondering, if you use the Metolius Rope Hooks for double ropes, and you lead consecutive pitches, do you and your second use 2 of the hooks, or four?

acrophobe wrote:I was wondering, if you use the Metolius Rope Hooks for double ropes, and you lead consecutive pitches, do you and your second use 2 of the hooks, or four?

Both ropes are stacked on a single hook at the belay, so the party needs a total of two hooks. The hook capacity is barely adequate for two 60m 8.5's.

What makes the hooks better than flaking over a tie-in is that the belayer can drop loops off the hook; they don't have to be pulled off as is the case with tie-in flaking. Since you are dropping loops from the hooks, no loop gets shorter as you pay out slack and this eliminates the loop-capture phenomenon which is primarily responsible for tangling.

Chris Rice wrote:Like rgold I've been using doubles for a couple decades+. Lots of advantages to them. I often climb in a party of 3 and do all the leading (me, the wife, and grandson). I'll second the rope hooks, especially in a group of 3. Simply stack in the hooks with pretty even sized loops - rotate rope in hook one half turn - and lead on. No tangles or problems. Like anything practice helps but it's not that difficult. If you bring both followers up close together one hook works fine but if you do one completely and then the other two hooks work better. Stacking and reflaking is best if you can but hanging belays etc is where the rope hooks really shine. It's also pretty easy to make your own rope hook using bigger PVC that holds larger or longer doubles

20 kN wrote:... more complication. It gets complicated to feed out slack on one strand of rope while trying to ensure the other strand is of the correct length ...

But there's no requirement to do it that way.
I normally tell Sharon belaying me to just feed the ropes in unison like I was leading on a single rope (or like twin ropes) - and to only make an independent adjustment if they get obviously out of sync.

Of course if I did fall while pulling up one rope to clip the protection, I would go farther than if she were doing precise independent management of each half rope.
But no farther than if I'd been leading on a single rope or on twins - (often a bit less far falling with halfs, because I did not need to lengthen my slings like I would to avoid rope drag with single or twins).

Mostly I choose to use two half-ropes to protect Sharon on traverses and reduce rope drag (and to give us more descent and rescue options), not to reduce my fall length.

There might be an occasional situation where I might ask for precise independent management for a specific move, but not generally.

And there have been times when I've clipped the same half rope through five consecutinve pieces of protection. And long non-difficult alpine rock routes where I just left the second half-rope in the car to save weight.

Half rope is more versatile than twins, and does not require any additional complexity.

Ken

Chris Rice wrote:Like rgold I've been using doubles for a couple decades+. Lots of advantages to them. I often climb in a party of 3 and do all the leading (me, the wife, and grandson). I'll second the rope hooks, especially in a group of 3. Simply stack in the hooks with pretty even sized loops - rotate rope in hook one half turn - and lead on. No tangles or problems. Like anything practice helps but it's not that difficult. If you bring both followers up close together one hook works fine but if you do one completely and then the other two hooks work better. Stacking and reflaking is best if you can but hanging belays etc is where the rope hooks really shine. It's also pretty easy to make your own rope hook using bigger PVC that holds larger or longer doubles

Holy crap, he quoted himself within the same post. I don't even know what's real anymore!

BWAAAAAH!