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Transitioning from top rope to rappel?

Original Post
Trever O'Brien · · SD · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 25

What is the best way to transition to rappel from the top of your route after setting a top rope anchor if you want to belay from the bottom? Scenario: all anchor points are ground level nothing is available at shoulder or waist height and anchor is rigged with webbing and equalized with a cordelette to extend master point over edge. So attaching a prusik to the rigging rope is out. Is it best to stand up and walk backward over the edge to weight rope? Climb over edge and down climb enough to weight rope before rappelling? Or just lower and belay from the top?

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80

Amga likes a foxtail or an instructor teather.

Basically, you connect a length of static line to one of the anchor points that can extend over the edge and below the master point.

-Pre rig your rappel on the main line with an atc
-Use a gri gri, munter (with a backup), or borrow another atc and do the full rap setup on that line (gri gri is easiest).
-Rap down to the master point via the instructor teather, weight the main line, remove the gri gri or whatever the first rappel device was and continue to the bottom.

Edit: you can still teather onto the webbing via a sling and kleimheist hitch

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Sometimes, I will just walk down back to the base in a situation like that. Or, I will downclimb it until I weight the rope, With an autoblock on. Getting lowered by your partner is possible too, involving the same little bit of downclimbing first. Any of those work. You choose.

But stepping over the edge is unnerving.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

- pre rig your ATC on the line, tie it off before going over

- use a dynamic tether such as a beal dynaconnection or make one out of a piece of rope, clip it to the anchor

- grab the anchor, sit down and carefully hand lower yourself

- have someone safe and experience supervise you initially

I do it all the time when TR soloing/cleaning ... Did it several times today

;)

Trever O'Brien · · SD · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 25

William r-Using the instructor tether would be ideal if I had a 10mm static line or the like but I use a 8mm static cordelette instead and the gri gri doesn't work on anything smaller than an 8.9mm neither does atc very well also not a big fan of rapping on a munter but I guess that is an option.

Frank- I would only use this for climbs that I could not access the bottom with a class 3 scramble or hike. However most that I can access from bottom and top I do just walk down unless I'm practicing rapping specifically. But I definatley agree stepping over the edge is very unnerving and the drop really sucks lol that's why I was curious what some other tactics were.

Thanks! That is my usual way of doing it bearbreeder just feel like I look like a fool lol...

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

William in that scenario is someone rapping over the edge on a single point of protection?

Brady3 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 15

NOLS teaches something similar to what William explained. You can setup a beefer anchor above if you wish, it all depends on what the anchor points are like.

You can do it with the climb line instead of a static line.
have the center of the rope clipped in the master point with one side down and the other side comes up through your lowering point and back down so that the end hangs below the masterpoint. Rappel to the masterpoint and clip into it directly so that you can unclip from the rappel. Take out your stopper at the end of the first rappel line and pull it so that it's only hanging from the masterpoint and re-knot the end then rappel from the masterpoint. If doing it this way or with a static line you don't necessarily need a second rappel device if you just clip to the anchor to switch. (of course clip to the anchor using lockers and use a third hand to make clipping to the anchor easier) Also this is only practical for the last person coming down, use anchor with a masterpoint that is more easily accessible if others are rappelling.

Practice all of this not on a cliff if you have any questions and/or find someone local that can show you and watch you set it (again not on a cliff).

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Folks ... All of this setting up extra lines is nice and dandy ...

But the reality is if yr doing laps, or on multipitch rappels your simply going to clip yourself in, set up the device and carefully lower yourself over ...

No one is going to do these fancy setups on multipitch rappels especially when theres thunder and lighting coming in

So one had better be pratice at setting things up quickly

Of course im talking about basic skills beyond TRing ar the crag here .... And assumes one wants to progress beyond it

;)

Will Cohen · · Denver, Co · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 80
William in that scenario is someone rapping over the edge on a single point of protection?

Nope the leg of the anchor one is rapping down should be beefy enough to be considered an anchor in its own right (big tree, boulder, 2-3 pieces of pro etc)

bearbreeder wrote:Folks ... All of this setting up extra lines is nice and dandy ... But the reality is if yr doing laps, or on multipitch rappels your simply going to clip yourself in, set up the device and carefully lower yourself over ... No one is going to do these fancy setups on multipitch rappels especially when theres thunder and lighting coming in So one had better be pratice at setting things up quickly Of course im talking about basic skills beyond TRing ar the crag here .... And assumes one wants to progress beyond it ;)
Absolutely... I was just answering the question for the situation presented --Would never bother with that on multi pitch, but for a TR anchor that may need to be multiple feet over the edge... I'd rather have a tether or walk back to the base personally.
Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

If i don't want to/can't walk down, and want to rap from a rope with a master point extended over the lip from bolts/gear that is set back from, but level with the lip, I will either:

1. Get the whole TR setup, pull it up from over the edge, rig my rappel, back it up with an autoblock, and put a knot in the rope a few feet under the autoblock. I'll then carefully downclimb onto the rope, using the anchor cord/webbing as handholds.

If that seems too risky, but i still really don't want to walk down, then:

2. Build two anchors - one that goes over the edge, and one that does not. Fix the middle of the rope to a locker on the lower anchor, and toss one end to the ground. Using the other end of the rope, Set up a rappel on the upper anchor, back it up (autoblock), then sit at the lip and carefully turn so you're on the rap line. Lower down and tether yourself into the lower master point. Then pull rope, and set up your top rope/second rappel while hanging from the lower anchor.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Trever O'Brien wrote:William r-Using the instructor tether would be ideal if I had a 10mm static line or the like but I use a 8mm static cordelette instead and the gri gri doesn't work on anything smaller than an 8.9mm neither does atc very well also not a big fan of rapping on a munter but I guess that is an option.
You can use a prussik instead of a belay device. Just prussik yourself to the edge line, make sure you close the system - clip the end of your 8mil cord to yourself with a figure 8 on a bight.
Trever O'Brien · · SD · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 25

Thanks all! Good thoughts! Many ways to do it again just seeing what is out there. Multi pitch climbs will definatley be in the future and for that the set up will be much different I'm sure. Just looking at the top rope scenario for now. With all of this being said...using the same situation but belaying from the top what is the best way to do this without having rope run over the edge causing damage? I understand getting the master point as close to or over the edge is ideal. But what if that puts you in a bad position/stance for belaying? Take the bad stance to save your rope? Thoughts?

Will Carney · · Tallulah Falls, GA · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 135

Climbing over with an autoblock is one way, albeit much less stable than lowering over the edge via gri-gri on a tether line and transferring to an ATC w/autoblock rappel. If this is a top rope scenario that you encounter often, I would advise looking into acquiring some static line with which to build the suitable anchor for this situation. There is a climb near me that has a similar situation where the master point needs to be over the edge to reduce drag and I used to just downclimb with an autoblock. Now I use a 30m static line to build my anchor, leaving a tether line. Of course, every scenario requires a different approach to anchor building but I think you would like the tether setup once you have employed it a time or two.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Trever O'Brien wrote:Thanks all! Good thoughts! Many ways to do it again just seeing what is out there. Multi pitch climbs will definatley be in the future and for that the set up will be much different I'm sure. Just looking at the top rope scenario for now. With all of this being said...using the same situation but belaying from the top what is the best way to do this without having rope run over the edge causing damage? I understand getting the master point as close to or over the edge is ideal. But what if that puts you in a bad position/stance for belaying? Take the bad stance to save your rope? Thoughts?
Trevor,

It's OK for the rope to run over an edge, as long as it isn't a sharp edge. Ropes run over edges all the time.

Edit: If it were a sharp edge, you could "pad" the edge, which is a little PITA.
Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
bearbreeder wrote:Folks ... All of this setting up extra lines is nice and dandy ... But ....
Independent of the topic of this thread, I'm reminded of a Boy Scouts of America recommendation: when doing a rappel exercise, fix the top of the rap rope to the anchor with a munter mule; if the trainee in mid-rappel can't continue for some reason, the instructor (at the anchor) releases the mule and lowers the trainee.

  • great ready-to-go contingency for rap practice
  • obviously limited when it comes to climbing in the wild (nor was that intended)

Sure, take the extra lines. For one of my early climb trips, I brought along a 50 meter static rope. But it soon became superfluous ...
Doug S · · W Pa · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55

Maybe I misread the OP so I'm imagining this much simpler than what it really is... if so I apologize in advance.
1)Set up top anchors, masterpoint and rope from the top of cliff.
2)Pre-set up rappel w/ autoblock on your climbing rope.
3)Clip personal tether into the masterpoint
4)Sit/lower/downclimb until the rap is weighted. Use the rigging to assist yourself/downclimb by hand if necessary.
5)Unclip personal tether from masterpoint, then rappel.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

At the north shore of Lake Superior in mn we belay from top on tr most commonly. Almost everyone pads the edge and runs the rope over. It's just too convenient. I've seen one person do a hanging belay with the master point over the edge. I'd the climb is short enough we tie the rope in half with a overhand on a bight or figure 8 on bight. Longer climbs get two ropes. One side is for rapping and is fixed and the other side is for belaying. Usually people do gri gri on the master point. Atc in guide mode works too. Only thing I find dangerous is sometimes the gri gri gets weighted such that he cam does not work and it won't auto lock. And in some tr setups the belayer brake hand is at an awkward angle. More dangerous than I think most people realize.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Trever O'Brien wrote:Thanks all! Good thoughts! Many ways to do it again just seeing what is out there. Multi pitch climbs will definatley be in the future and for that the set up will be much different I'm sure. Just looking at the top rope scenario for now. With all of this being said...using the same situation but belaying from the top what is the best way to do this without having rope run over the edge causing damage? I understand getting the master point as close to or over the edge is ideal. But what if that puts you in a bad position/stance for belaying? Take the bad stance to save your rope? Thoughts?
http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/video/how-to-belay-at-the-top-of-a-climb

;)
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
FrankPS wrote: Trevor, It's OK for the rope to run over an edge, as long as it isn't a sharp edge. Ropes run over edges all the time. Edit: If it were a sharp edge, you could "pad" the edge, which is a little PITA.
A rounded granite "edge" will fuzz up a rope pretty quick out here

Ive also seen folks who got stuck on TR when the friction from the edge and having the strands on top of each other on the edge resulted in a stuck climber

;)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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