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turkbrim9 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 0

I've got to say, the Basic Fitness Test was humbling for me. As someone who has done intensive cardio/light strength workouts 2x a week for several months, and many 5,000+' gain dayhikes, I scored the following

box step: poor/good
dips: good
situps: poor (!)
pull-ups: poor
box jumps: n/a
push-ups: good

but I now know where I need to improve.


Question:

James C,

How much rest did you give yourself between each of the different test/sets for your Basic Fitness Test. Or do you start with the box steps and go right into dips, then into sit ups, etc?? I didn't see in the book how your suppose implement the test. Maybe I missed something.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I'm curious what you guys think about the lower end of your zone 1. My HRM has a feature that you can set a "bottom end" and it keeps track of the time above and below that point. I've been using 100 bpm. That seems pretty low, but it handily subtracts out the time spent peeing, reading trail signs, etc. Of course, most of my time actually exercising, my HR is quite a bit above that. But, on a fast hike, sometimes my downhill HR's get that low, even when I'm well above 4 miles per hour.

I guess what I'm asking, is what you'd include in your weekly hours of "exercise" as far as minimum heart rate goes.

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55
Tom Nyce wrote:I'm curious what you guys think about the lower end of your zone 1. My HRM has a feature that you can set a "bottom end" and it keeps track of the time above and below that point. I've been using 100 bpm. That seems pretty low, but it handily subtracts out the time spent peeing, reading trail signs, etc. Of course, most of my time actually exercising, my HR is quite a bit above that. But, on a fast hike, sometimes my downhill HR's get that low, even when I'm well above 4 miles per hour. I guess what I'm asking, is what you'd include in your weekly hours of "exercise" as far as minimum heart rate goes.
Tom - I have been using average HR only for my times - don't know if that is correct or not but I can't see trying to figure out every second of a workout.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

Chris: I'm definitely not trying to pin down things to the second, lol. I was just curious about the lowest limit people count as cardio exercise.
I do a lot of "power hikes" that are in the 20+ mile in length (I did two of them last week). At those distances, I'm only running part of the time. When I'm walking I'm definitely at what I'd consider "the lower edge" of zone 1, even though I'm walking fast. The briefest of stops (like a pee stop) will lower my hr below 100 for several minutes after the fact. So using a low "cutoff HR" of 120 vs 100 bpm might make the difference between counting 5.5 hours vs 4 hours of "exercise."
Similar situations come into play when I hike up and down a CO fourteener, or go for a cross country ski tour that has rolling terrain (where the downhills are comfortable coasting without turns).

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

Tom - What is your max HR and what % number are you calling the bottom of Zone 1? From the way I read the book (and other HR training books I have) many of the cellular changes I am looking for during the base phase are happening best close to the bottom of the zone. Then as I move more into what I might call a "fitness" phase I want more towards the top of zone 1 - bottom of zone 2 to increase ability to perform at a higher level for longer. Then kick in some harder work as I get closer to a trip or whatever. So I think both have benefit depending on where you are in your cycle of training. I also think the bottom of zone 1 or below even offers recovery benefits from things like strength work etc.

jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165

Tom, it sounds like you're trying to correct for a perception of what 'junk' activity - something more than rest but less than some arbitrary definition of quality. I like to beat cycling analogies to death, but it's as if you've got a power meter and want to have a 'non-zero-averaging' average power output as opposed to zero-averaging (excluding periods of time where the workload is negligible in your eyes).

Like Chris, I generally err on the side of just counting all of the time unless there was a really extended break.

Given that HR is a lagging indicator and not totally contemporaneous, I wouldn't worry too much about HR staying really low for a few minutes after a short stop. If your goal is to measure training stimulus, then you're most likely getting some sort of stimulus even at those low levels.

As an aside, I feel like measuring HR zones is messy business. Trying to find a cutoff on the low side seems like an even tougher challenge than finding a max HR or a 'threshold' HR. There's nothing wrong with declaring one arbitrarily, but one should accept the arbitrariness for what it is.

Mark R · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

When you guys talk about HR zones are you using HRmax or HRR? I've seen zones defined both ways depending on the guide. The percentages are usually the same but one coach will say "65% of Max Heart Rate" and one will say "65% of HRR" while talking about Zone 1 training.

I'm defining HRR as Max Heart Rate - Resting Heart Rate so 65% of HRR would be ((Max-Resting)*.65) + Resting = Target HR

whereas the other option would be

Max*.65 = Target HR

It seems like the HRR would be more accurate. I've seen both in reliable sources but not been able to find a comparison or clarification of which to use.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45
Mark Ra wrote:When you guys talk about HR zones are you using HRmax or HRR? I've seen zones defined both ways depending on the guide. The percentages are usually the same but one coach will say "65% of Max Heart Rate" and one will say "65% of HRR" while talking about Zone 1 training. I'm defining HRR as Max Heart Rate - Resting Heart Rate so 65% of HRR would be ((Max-Resting)*.65) + Resting = Target HR whereas the other option would be Max*.65 = Target HR It seems like the HRR would be more accurate. I've seen both in reliable sources but not been able to find a comparison or clarification of which to use.
Just to clarify, I believe that you are defining "Heart rate range" as (HR-RHR)/(HRmax-RHR). Correct? I've seen other definitions.
In most public discussions (like this one), and in many books (including TFTNA), people use % of max more often that the heart rate range (HRR).
I agree with you that HRR seems more "accurate," in some ways. The two are quite different in the lower intensity zones, so it is important to specify which you are using. For calculation of calories burned for instance, HRR (not percentage of max) is used by the watches that come with a HRM strap.
In Daniels Running Formula, he has a table relating your %effort level to the %HR. He actually measured this in people running with face masks on, but you can construct/calculate a similar table by using HRR, assuming a rest heart rate of around 55 BPM.
Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I found the table that I was talking about. I posted it elsewhere a couple years ago, so I already had it typed in. Amazingly, I was able to locate it. Hope it isn't too confusing.
__________________________________________________________________________________
From Daniels’ intensity training table:

%VO2max, % HRmax, max duration

E = Easy

%VO2max %HRmax
59% 65%
64% 70%
68% 74%
72% 77%
74% 79%

M = Marathon intensity

%VO2max %HRmax
75% 80% 5 hour marathon
78% 83% 4 hours
81% 86% 3 hours
82% 87% 2:50
83% 88% 2:20
84% 89% 2:05

T = Threshold intensity (lactate turnpoint). A typical "T" workout is 20 minutes at 85% VO2max and 90% max heart rate.

%VO2max %HRmax
83% 88%
84% 89%
85% 89.5%
86% 90%
87% 91%
88% 92%

I = Interval intensity

95% 97.5%
96% 98%
97% 98.5%
98% 99%
99% 99.5%
100% 100%

R = Reps (to build strength and running economy)

105%
110%
115%
120%

10K zone. (not a typical “training” zone, but useful information).

89% 92.5% (sustainable for 60 minutes)
90% 93% 50:00
91% 94% 40:00
92% 95% 35:00
93% 96% 30:00
94% 97% 27:00

Sean M · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 0

Hey there, got the book about a month ago and read it cover to cover for about a month. Now i'm on my second week of the transitioning phase, for my zone 1 runs i started out at 2 miles. Does that sound alright to you guys?

FosterK · · Edmonton, AB · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 67

Sean M, mileage will depend on your experience, but I think if you've reviewed this thread most of us do not focus on mileage. Indeed, neither does House-Johnston. The focus is on time and proportions of total training volumes in hours.

If you need to restrict the mileage because you have no running experience (which is not a bad idea!), then considering alternatives for the remainder of your Zone 1 time: hiking with a pack; rowing; cycling; XC-skiing as necessary to relieve the stress on your joints until they've developed.

Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40

Sean M,
Totally agree on time focus versus mileage focus. Also, with a heartrate focus, just be aware that your times are likely going to really suck compared to any running you've done before. You may even have to run/walk at first.
Anyway, for whatever my anecdote is worth to you:
On my first cycle through the program, I was coming off of a bunch of HIIT work and focused on competing in 2-mile races. I set my total time at 185 hours, based on the recommendations in the book for the average desk jockey who gets to exercise enough to avoid getting fat. I had 20 mins in Zone 1, 15 mins in Zone 2, 30 mins for my weekend "long run," and 120 minutes for General Strength and Core (2 60 min sessions/week). That was a good baseline. Following the increase guidelines in the book, I was hitting 533 minutes per week as my maximum cycle training time in Weeks 17,19, and 20 of base period training. That was the most I could handle while remaining a desk jockey with a fairly intense work life and a family at home.

Tom Nyce · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 45

I agree with Foster and Jonny D, that running alone might not be the best way to get used to zone 1 training. I'm an experienced runner, and have nothing against running, but there are some definite non-cardio limits on your how much you can safely do, if you are a new runner. Like others have suggested, fill out the remaining time with various cross training schemes. For myself in the winter, when I can't go x-c skiing, I really get a lot of benefits out of incline treadmill work. You can tailor the angle and speed to get exactly the intensity desired for that specific workout.

Mark R · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65

I've had good results using both a rowing machine and an exercise bike to dial in my HR training.

Jonny d · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 40

Ditto Tom's rec on the incline treadmill. My wife suffers from pretty severe Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome (discussed in New Alpinism), and the incline adjustment on the treadmill allows her to dial in to her zone. I'll also use it here in Kansas when hitting the Zone 2 incline with pack/boots portion of the training.

kevin graves · · Mammoth Lakes, CA · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 5

Questions I still have after reading book:

In Zone training do you use AVERAGE HEART RATE over workout (my hill varies from zone 1 to zone 3 in ZONE 1 training) ?

Or am I always supposed to vary my pace to stay within zone 1 ?

I started in reasonable shape and find it hard to stay in zone 1 if carrying a pack up hill (45#, 1.5 hours) or moving beyond a slow slow jog. Is training 1.5 hours per day in Zone 1 really going to increase my endurance or speed over same time ? Can afford about 2-3 hours per weekday training and full weekends. Run an 11 min mile average in half marathon; 56 years old, climb 5.10 trad. Appreciate advice. My goal is Denali Cassin in 2016 so have time to build both strength and endurance.

Mark R · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
kevin graves wrote:Questions I still have after reading book: In Zone training do you use AVERAGE HEART RATE over workout (my hill varies from zone 1 to zone 3 in ZONE 1 training) ? Or am I always supposed to vary my pace to stay within zone 1 ? I started in reasonable shape and find it hard to stay in zone 1 if carrying a pack up hill (45#, 1.5 hours) or moving beyond a slow slow jog. Is training 1.5 hours per day in Zone 1 really going to increase my endurance or speed over same time ? Can afford about 2-3 hours per weekday training and full weekends. Run an 11 min mile average in half marathon; 56 years old, climb 5.10 trad. Appreciate advice. My goal is Denali Cassin in 2016 so have time to build both strength and endurance.
You're supposed to vary your pace to keep your HR in Zone 1. It's difficult and you might need to go really slow starting out but that's the intent. Your zone 1 capacity will grow and it'll improve your endurance across the board.
DesertRat · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 196
kevin graves wrote:Questions I still have after reading book: In Zone training do you use AVERAGE HEART RATE over workout (my hill varies from zone 1 to zone 3 in ZONE 1 training) ? Or am I always supposed to vary my pace to stay within zone 1 ? I started in reasonable shape and find it hard to stay in zone 1 if carrying a pack up hill (45#, 1.5 hours) or moving beyond a slow slow jog. Is training 1.5 hours per day in Zone 1 really going to increase my endurance or speed over same time ? Can afford about 2-3 hours per weekday training and full weekends. Run an 11 min mile average in half marathon; 56 years old, climb 5.10 trad. Appreciate advice. My goal is Denali Cassin in 2016 so have time to build both strength and endurance.
You sound like you are in about the same shape as I am (11min marathon pace/ 5.10 trad). I am finding that the reason I vary so much in the hill climbing w/ pack is because I needed more strength reserve. I am comfortable carrying a pack for miles with heavy elevation gains/losses, but since I have been measuring I can see that once I am on any sort of grade, my heart rate rockets. My last trip in the canyon, I spent 8 of 12 hours in zone 3. This was occurring even after doing a bunch of Zone 1 training. I started heading to the gym and found that even though I thought my legs were strong from carrying a heavy pack so much, that they were really weak. Currently, I've been getting eaten alive doing squats and lunges with any kind of weight, but it's slowly getting better. I anticipate seeing a difference in how my HR responds while hill training with the pack.
DesertRat · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 196

Also, I've noticed a major difference in my HR depending on how I've eaten. If I've eaten a pretty clean diet i.e. grass fed meats, veggies, fruit and healthy fats, then my HR is on average 10bpm less than if I have had any kind of processed food etc. This is frustrating when doing the Zone 1 training, since it can change my pace from a comfortable jog, even uphill, to not even being able to jog very fast on flat ground.

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

Heart Rate Zone numbers will vary a lot with a change in the type of exercise done. I get much different numbers on the Rower, Bike, Stepper, Walking, rucking, lifting weights, for a perceived exertion level etc. Strength is a skill and highly dependent on exactly what you have been training.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Mountaineering
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