Belay system for trad/multi-pitch?

P.S. One instance where lowering is faster and arguably safer (and certainly more efficient) is when within reach of the ground and you want to get less-experienced climbers off the route quickly; for example, it's storming and they're cold and tired. In this situation it's faster to lower them than to rely on them to control their rappel descent, pre-rigged or not. A very common guiding strategy.

Arguments against lowering are convincing enough. My partner/mentor is the main source of this system. He prefers lowering the first climber, direct off the harness. Has to do with some accident he was involved years ago. I am going to discuss with him.

Apline Smart looks very interesting. Does the auto-lock feature works as good as Gri-Gri?

to me it seems like the leader having the grigri makes more sense. easier to lower the follower for whatever reason. only occasionally to i bring a grigri on multipitch. most of the time its a reverso. usually i have a second one in case one of us drops ours. i have never done the lower the first as you describe, i have always just rapped. i can see the advantages...esp if its windy and avoiding tangled ropes is a concern. back to the grigri...i have always thought that "hard" catch was bad if the leader was falling on a marginal piece of gear. then again you are talking about working hard pitches on a multipitch....this is something that i don't do...i usually climb below my max on long multipitch. grigri cant be that much heavier...esp considering the weight of a trad rack and or draws. i keep hearing about the alpine smart....hmmm

I can't comment on the Alpine Smart, but the AlpineUp locks off as reliably as a grigri. I've tested it hands off with a knot tied as a backup and it's always caught immediately.

Do you know how to escape the belay? If not I would avoid putting your self in the system.
And read Steve's post 4 times.

"most of the time its a reverso. usually i have a second one in case one of us drops ours"

Munter much?

Chris Hills wrote:"most of the time its a reverso. usually i have a second one in case one of us drops ours" Munter much?

yeah, im capable of using a munter...although it is not my regular practice...it is easy to do. biner brake too if i had the biners (which i wouldnt) have even tried the dulerwitz (prob spelled that wrong) but that would be a last resort for me, and if there were freehanging or even steep raps there is no way i would attempt it....don't see the harm in carrying an extra reverso just to be on the safe side though. the weight is a non factor to me. i have yet to drop a belay device on a climb, but you never know.

i am curious about one thing though....when i messed around with the biner break rap i used ovals....has anyone set one up with other shapes and how does that work out??

Benjaminadk wrote:i am curious about one thing though....when i messed around with the biner break rap i used ovals....has anyone set one up with other shapes and how does that work out??

I've used the carabiner brake with D shaped biners. It worked fine.

Benjaminadk wrote: i am curious about one thing though....when i messed around with the biner break rap i used ovals....has anyone set one up with other shapes and how does that work out??

I've done it with D's too - the important part is that the spines the rope runs over are rounded. It worked fine, but my experience was that there was much less friction than I was used to. I intentionally rapped last and had a fireman's belay from below.

I tried using one of those hefty omega pacific rap rings as a rap device once, just to see if in a pinch you could use it as a tube device. It doesn't have a big enough opening for two ropes to feed well, so it has two positions - stop and go very fast. I bet you could use it on skinnier ropes or a single strand though.

cool. i feel like petzl should come up with a grigri designed for double ropes around 8mm-9mm. i think the grigri2 is a great tool. i think they could come up with some pretty creative solutions for this.

Larry S wrote:It worked fine, but my experience was that there was much less friction than I was used to.

Carabiner brake inherently has less friction than a belay device. The rope makes a "C" in the biner brake, vs. making a "N" in most belay devices. However, I found myself prefer the smooth rap I get from a biner brake, especially on low angle raps. I like it so much that I often set up my autoblocking belay device in "biner brake mode" to rap with.

SXL wrote:Arguments against lowering are convincing enough. My partner/mentor is the main source of this system. He prefers lowering the first climber, direct off the harness. Has to do with some accident he was involved years ago. I am going to discuss with him. Apline Smart looks very interesting. Does the auto-lock feature works as good as Gri-Gri?

The auto lock on the smart alpine works well and i have had no problem with it. Once the rope is weighted, it uses the angle of the opening in the device to pinch the rope with the carabiner. Its a more simple design than the gri gri since it really has no moving parts. I have a gri gri 1 and i like the alpine better as an all around device. I still use the gri gri some though too but typically for multi pitch, i use the alpine. Worth checking out imo.

SXL wrote:Please critique on the belay/rappel system we are using. Thank you in advance! on ascent: * Leader is always belayed with a Gri-Gri * Leader carries Reverso + HMS biner * Second is belayed with a Reverso in guide mode * Second brings Gri-Gri up with him on descent: * first climber is tied to both ends of rope * first climber is lowered using Reverso * alt. first climber can rappel using Gri-Gri on single strand * second climber rappels using Reverso My motivations. I know it's a very sport-influenced system. Easy to work a hard pitch with Gri-Gri. On descent, lowered climber ensures that next anchor can be reached and manages the rope if needed. The bad is that requires both climbers to be "in" on the system. Also, Gri-Gri is heavy.

For descent

- thread the rope through the anchor

- put a clove hitch in the middle to the anchor

- first climber raps down on a single strand on the grigri

- he//she clips the loose strand to a draw on their harness to prevent it from swinging out of reach

- second climber takes off the clove and raps normally

The advantage

- the line is fixed, no faff with tying back to oneself

- you can easily reascend the rope with a grigri if you miss the anchors

- if your rope gets damaged you cam shift to the loose strand and isolate the damage

-you can tie into the loose strand and be belayed up if you need to

- you can be belayed down the loose stand if you hair or clothing get stuck in the device and you spent yr time surfing MP rather than practicing self rescue

- if a rock konks you out on rap, your belayer can descent to you on the loose strand

Other than that yr setup is fine

;)

bearbreeder wrote: For descent

Pure genius. Thank you very much!