Carabiners for Alpine Draws

Shoot. Didn't you guys see the other thread on this topic. All alpine draws need lockers on both ends... sometimes, most times and alway.

Greg D wrote:Shoot. Didn't you guys see the other thread on this topic. All alpine draws need lockers on both ends... sometimes, most times and alway.

Especially when you are ice diving.

I like the Edelrid mission quickdraws. They only weigh 25g/draw and have a full-size 20mm gate opening. You can get them for pretty cheap if you shop around a little bit.
The DMM alfa trad is also very, very nice.

Lots of great comments here. What I've found from carrying extendible draws for over 20 years is that you want a slightly heavier 'biner on the bottom end. WHen I first started using EDs I rigged them with 30gm Superflys and was in bliss because they were so light. What ended happening is that when they're hanging on your rack or harness the bottom carabiner wasn't heavy enough to allow the trippled slings to hang straight and they'd get all tangled up. I now use something in the 40-45 gm range like a BD Positron, DMM Specter 2 or old Petzl Spirit.

Use whatever you want on the top 'biner. Light is right there.

Climb safe,
Mal

Edited to add: SInce Wayne Crill's unclipping accident in Eldo, I've been using a fair number of the Edelrid Pure Slider carabiners on extend draws. I also carry a sing QD with these on each end. If you haven't seen these check them out. They are a 42gm locker that is really simple to use and can be clipped with one hand.

How about whatever crap is not on my sport draws and/or cams at the moment? Seriously, I use mostly ovals, Ds and the occasional small locker that are left over from everything else.

Heliums. 'Nuff said.

Gunks Jesse wrote: ...Like someone else said, I'm not climbing in the semi-pro range like many people in this forum are, so weight isn't as big of an issue for me...

IMHO the main benefit of having a bunch of lightweight gear is on the approach, not the climb.

Recently I found that new cheap Trango Phase are really good. If I were building my trad rack now days I would end up with Phase binners. They clip very smooth, easy to unclip, ligth, and very handy. And, yes, cheap.

Many lightweight biners work well on the alpine draw's end that is clipped to fixed or self-placed pro. Unless I'm desperate, I rotate the biner through the bolt hanger or piton, so the gate opens down and out, reducing the risk of it unclipping or becoming cross-loaded. Almost every time I watch a leader move past a bolt and the biner is clipped with the gate nose up and facing the climber's direction of movement, that biner rotates so the gate nose is almost resting on the bolt hanger.

I use first-generation Petzl Spirits for bearing the rope, because it is relatively strong when cross-loaded and has a thicker rope-friendly cross-section. Each of my Spirits has a cross-loaded strength of 10 kn. The interior "perimeter" of the Spirit has only one (instead of two) sharp features, which is the case with any biner having a keylock gate nose.

Unless we secure the biner to the alpine draw's sling as we do to sport draws (the subject of another MP thread), the biner is free to rotate around the rope and could get cross-loaded in the instant of impact. Cross-loading a wire-gate biner can happen more easily because the rope LESS easily slides off of the wire. None of my wire-gate biners has a cross-loaded strength greater than 7kn.

Using a locker (or two biners with opposed gates opening in opposite directions) on the rope-bearing end of the alpine draw is the best idea, because that prevents the biner from unclipping from the rope or the sling. The DMM Phantom Screwgate has a keylock gate nose, weighs only 41g, and is rated at 9kn when cross-loaded.

I agree with what George said. Unfortunately all super light carabiners are non-keylock, that´s just how it is. There is no Key-Lock carabiner at around 25gramms.

Moritz B. wrote:I agree with what George said. Unfortunately all super light carabiners are non-keylock, that´s just how it is. There is no Key-Lock carabiner at around 25gramms.

The Ange S is 28g and key-locking, that's pretty close.

That´s true, the Ange is pretty light. Unfortunately it doesn´t have a full size gate - even though it is easily clippable.

Malcolm Daly wrote:Lots of great comments here. What I've found from carrying extendible draws for over 20 years is that you want a slightly heavier 'biner on the bottom end. WHen I first started using EDs I rigged them with 30gm Superflys and was in bliss because they were so light. What ended happening is that when they're hanging on your rack or harness the bottom carabiner wasn't heavy enough to allow the trippled slings to hang straight and they'd get all tangled up. I now use something in the 40-45 gm range like a BD Positron, DMM Specter 2 or old Petzl Spirit. Use whatever you want on the top 'biner. Light is right there. Climb safe, Mal Edited to add: SInce Wayne Crill's unclipping accident in Eldo, I've been using a fair number of the Edelrid Pure Slider carabiners on extend draws. I also carry a sing QD with these on each end. If you haven't seen these check them out. They are a 42gm locker that is really simple to use and can be clipped with one hand.

Mal,

check out the upcoming Grivel Twin Gates (they're also due to release a double wire). I got a few for the exact same uses you cite. I have 2 Trad draws with them on the rope side and two shoulder slings with them.

My Trad draw setup preference is a key lock on the gear side and WC helium on the rope side. I use Spirit or Positron on the bolt/gear side. When clipping old hangers, pins etc the narrow, snag free nose is nice to have and I find they can be flipped easily for that occasional pin placement that needs it.

+1 Astros
+1 Helium
(haven't decided if I like the big or small biners)

+1 Weight is more important on the approach.

I use OZ for everything I can, but most of my cams are neutrinos. I prefer the old style OZ, but I make almost all my alpine draws from the 15 or so OZ I have.

Mammut Moses which I think are called Wall wire gate now. Almost as light as Nanos slightly bigger so I don't find a need to swap out winter to summer. Better gate action and about as strong as the heavier larger wire gates. Fairly inexpensive as well. Keep a couple photon lockers on my harness and will toss it on if I'm really worried about decking or getting mangled if it was to cross load and fail.

Mammut Moses have a nose that likes to snag narrow slings and wired nuts, resulting in a crossloaded carabiner. Lots of posts on it here on MP. I would strongly consider other carabiners.

I'll add support for the Oz.

moses on the left, wall on the right



from weighting a hammock ....

hammockforums.net/forum/sho…

;)

I've never noticed it to be worse than any other biner. I've used them for years and myself nor any of my partners have ever felt uncomfortable using them or had any major issues. But different strokes for different folks. Just my 2cents

The hammock post is amusing its like when someone comes into my shop with a destroyed bike and say they were "just riding along".