Belay system for trad/multi-pitch?

Please critique on the belay/rappel system we are using. Thank you in advance!

on ascent:

• Leader is always belayed with a Gri-Gri
• Leader carries Reverso + HMS biner
• Second is belayed with a Reverso in guide mode
• Second brings Gri-Gri up with him

on descent:

• first climber is tied to both ends of rope
• first climber is lowered using Reverso
• alt. first climber can rappel using Gri-Gri on single strand
• second climber rappels using Reverso

My motivations. I know it's a very sport-influenced system. Easy to work a hard pitch with Gri-Gri. On descent, lowered climber ensures that next anchor can be reached and manages the rope if needed. The bad is that requires both climbers to be "in" on the system. Also, Gri-Gri is heavy.

I would just inquire as to whether you are aware of the way that a grigri can increase force loads on a piece of protection during a fall. Or are we talking sport multipitch?

The Grigri is not meant as a rappel device. Bring an atc.

I don't understand why, on descent, the first climber is "tied into both ends of the rope"?

interesting thoughts from a guy with some experience

cascadeclimbers.com/alpine-…

Tug wrote:The Grigri is not meant as a rappel device. Bring an atc.

I would tend to agree with this. Not only that, but you can only attach one strand to the gri-gri, and lowering with an ATC in guide mode can be a pain.

Ascent looks fine, but for descent, I would suggest the following

1 - both climbers attach atc/tube devices to the rope, ready to rappel (rappel extensions are useful here to allow for a comfortable stance)
2 - first climber rappels, using "third-hand" back up (insert friction hitch of choice)
3 - once down, first backs up 2nd with fireman's belay
4 - second rappels down

Agree w/ the last post. I've taken to this system for almost all applications save instances where there is marginal pro on the route. I trust my main partners to belay me w/ an ATC but also like the security of knowing that in the advent of some crazy scenario (falling rock breaks hand/lands on helmet/etc) there is some added security.

Bring two gri, ditch the atc. Simul rap pending it's a solid anchor. If it's shabby, back it up and tie off a strand to single rap. Second party removes backup and single strand raps. Repeat all the way down.

Nothing's better than long raps with the gri.

Some might argue it's not the ideal novice setup.

DevinLane wrote:Bring two gri, ditch the atc. Simul rap pending it's a solid anchor. If it's shabby, back it up and tie off a strand to single rap. Second party removes backup and single strand raps. Repeat all the way down. Nothing's better than long raps with the gri. Some might argue it's not the ideal novice setup.

^^^ Yup. Rarely climb with an ATC anymore (this is excepting alpine climbing, different beast...) just a GriGri each for leader and follower. Learn and get comfortable with the biner block, simul-rap, and counterweight techniques and descending is just as quick and easier. Rapping on the GriGri will probably decrease it's life span a little bit, but there is nothing inherently unsafe about it. Rapping single strand also has the added benefit of giving you a contingency strand if you know how to use it.

I really like the combo of having one Climbing Technology AlpineUp, and one ATC Guide. Belay the leader with the autolocking(technically assisted locking) AlpineUp, leader takes the ATC Guide up with them and autoblock belays the follower up to them, and then repeat with the leader always belayed on the AlpineUp. Then for raps, first rappeller takes the AlpineUp(autolocking on rappel) and fireman belays the second follower.

One caveat: The AlpineUp sucks ass for lead belaying ropes over about 9.8mm diameter.

Dylan B. wrote:Get an Alpine Smart.

+1

I like this device a lot. Its my go to and is good all around. Auto lock on top rope belays. Feeds well for lead belaying. Can belay directly from top anchor in guide mode. Takes a little getting used to for rappelling but has the added benefit of autolocking for a back up.

I'm fine with your ascent system. I'm a recent convert to using my grigri trad climbing - i've had one for years but didn't use it much, i thought it was just added weight, but I now find I like the added security against rock-fall, narcolepsy, etc. I don't see that as a huge risk though, and am fine with being belayed with a non-assisted device. The most important factor is the person using the device.

On the way down, i disagree with your system.

Thread the rope thru the rap anchor, and both climbers descend with a double rope rappel device backed up with an autoblock below the device if they want.

The climber on the way down should be in control of their descent - being lowered from the top makes communication critical and adds in more steps - setting up a top belay, positioning belayer and rope... then your rope is running over everything the whole way down. I really don't see why you'd choose this system over other options, especially on any long descents or multiple rappels.

I also find using the grigri as a descender to be suboptimal - you need to set things up for it, and (at least with a grigri 1) it's a pretty jerky rap, and you're only untangling and in control of 1/2 of the line. It's a safe descent, i just don't like it.

I agree with RDW and have a few points to add:

- Don't lower your partner unless there's agood reasons to lower: your partner is unreliable (head injury, broken hand, etc) and you're lowering them straight to the ground; dropped belay device; very high winds so you don't want to toss the ropes and have them blow across the face and get snagged, so lower the climber down with both ends of the rope; etc. Con's to lowering: less control for person being lowered = more difficult moving around the cliff to locate and reach tricky anchor stances (assuming you have a reliable autoblock backup for the brake strand); less control carefully rapping over sharp edges; hard to visually confirm how far you can descend (can the rope reach?); lowering is much much slower than rapping with a well-tuned autoblock; the list goes on and on for cons.

If the rap route is equipped with solid bolted anchors, use this system to facilitate fast, comfortable, redundant and clusterfuck-free transitions:
- when first climber raps to bolted anchor, clip a pre-rigged quad to the anchor and clip your personal anchor system (PAS) into 2 strands of the quad. For my PAS I use a double-length sling basket-hitched to my belay loop with an overhand knot tied slightly closer to my belay loop than the middle. The PAS serves as your bomber tether, as well as your extension for rappelling. See photo:

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- second rappeller gets down to anchor and clips into opposite 2 strands of the quad (where the super shiney locker is in the pic).. this way, both climbers can move around without pulling the other off balance. With this setup, you can say goodbye to the dreaded biner-pinch, so long as you clip your quad above the chains on the hanger There is the potential for extension with a quad, but this application is totally acceptable with bomber 2-bolt anchors according to the American Mountain Guides Association.

FrankPS wrote:I don't understand why, on descent, the first climber is "tied into both ends of the rope"?

Allow him to pick the optimal way to manage both strands on the way down.

Larry S wrote: then your rope is running over everything the whole way down.

Probably better then having rope rub over an edge in one point. IMHO if sharp lips/edges are involved, it's safer to lower then rap.

I am not looking to change the whole system. Trying to get ideas if I can improve it without adding extra gear or steps.

SXL wrote: Probably better then having rope rub over an edge in one point. IMHO if sharp lips/edges are involved, it's safer to lower then rap. I am not looking to change the whole system. Trying to get ideas if I can improve it without adding extra gear or steps.

At least in the places I've climb, the rap anchors are usually set back from the lip a bit or on ledges where they are convenient, so if you're setting up just to lower, you're either running the loaded line over the lip, or you're anchoring one person in so that they're perched on the lip and lowering off their harness, which sounds really fun since the person being lowered has to downclimb to get beneith you. Either way, it's putting more wear on your rope then just rappelling.

I agree with what dirtbag said above - which i'll paraphrase as - Lowering should be the exception used to abate special risks, not the rule.

Dirtbag's system is [one of] the best set-up(s) with the small exception of the PAS; girth hitch the sling through your tie-in points because the belay loop is non-reinforced nylon so it is made for metal only. unless it's reinforced like on your tie-in points, nylon on nylon is bad as the friction can saw through the belay loop.

Also, (this is not much of a safety issue but a personal preference) i prefer to use nylon vs spectra for a PAS as it has a little bit of elongation which i find more comfortable. also keep in mind that knots in a sling reduce the strength and a knot in nylon will absorb some force while spectra will not. instead of knot, i use a clove hitch if i need to adjust the length. Take this with a grain of salt, though, as it is only personal preference.

Oh and i second the advice of getting an alpine smart; much better than a gri-gri in virtually every situation.

Larry S wrote: Either way, it's putting more wear on your rope then just rappelling.

Wear on rope is not a consideration. I go through a few ropes a year. Rope being cut over a sharp edge would be a problem.

Larry S wrote: I agree with what dirtbag said above - which i'll paraphrase as - Lowering should be the exception used to abate special risks, not the rule.

Would like to discuss that. My arguments for lowering:

• get the ropes down quickly and without tangles
• easy for a person lowered to look around
• easy for a person lowered pendulum if needed
• no safety knots needed - no snaggs
• if lowered too far, can climb back while on belay

In addition to the cons posted above;
Just see how your rope likes you after doing multiple cycles of lower then rap on one device. That mofo will get hot quick.
Imagine having to rap 5,6,or? pitches due to lightning, them having to wait at every anchor for THE device to cool. Sounds shitty.
-Mackley

"I trust my main partners to belay me w/ an ATC but also like the security of knowing that in the advent of some crazy scenario (falling rock breaks hand/lands on helmet/etc) there is some added security."

You know what else would add some security?
A climber with an arm growing out of his ass.
-Mackley
Ps. Just kidding. IMO the best belay/rap system is the one you're most comfortable AND efficient with.

SXL wrote:* Leader is always belayed with a Gri-Gri

If you remove the word ALWAYS from your post you put yourself in a much better position. So often the answer is "it depends." I am okay with my partner using a gri gri, so long as they understand that there is no slip with the device and he/she can provide a dynamic belay if the situation dictates.

SXL wrote:get the ropes down quickly and without tangles

I would argue that competent party can get their ropes down and have the 2nd person rapping using commonly practiced rope management and rappel techniques more quickly

SXL wrote:easy for a person lowered to look around

I'm able to look around quite well while rapping myself, and I can go faster because I'm controlling the speed and have a better view of the terrain I'm descending.

SXL wrote:easy for a person lowered pendulum if needed

This is just as easy while on rappel, especially if you use an autoblock (I rarely do)

SXL wrote:if lowered too far, can climb back while on belay

If you are rapping instead of being lowered, there's less of a chance you'll go too far. If you do go too far, you can batman the rope as long as it's not a free hanging rappel. If it's free hanging, you can prussik the rope. You brought your prussiks I hope?

It's quite clear that you come from a gym or sport climbing background. I strongly recommend that you get a mentor to teach you how to trad climb. You don't have to start over, but back way off on the grade and get your systems dialed. Too many accidents are happening due to gym climbers getting strong and not knowing what they're doing outside.

My friend had to lower a party off of Snake Dike in Yosemite a few years ago. They wanted to bail because 5.7 granite slab is much harder than the climbing they were used to. They didn't know how to rappel.

dirtbag wrote:Don't lower your partner unless there's agood reasons to lower: your partner is unreliable (head injury, broken hand, etc) and you're lowering them straight to the ground; dropped belay device; very high winds so you don't want to toss the ropes and have them blow across the face and get snagged, so lower the climber down with both ends of the rope

I agree, don't lower unless there is a compelling reason...

However, probably not the best idea to lower an unreliable injured partner (head injury and/or other serious injury). You risk compounding their injuries in a lower, even if you're close to the ground. If you have to move them, much better to do a tandem rappel where you can control their contact with the rock, etc.

On a multi-pitch rappel descent where I dropped my device, I would much rather rappel using a carabiner brake than lower; and in high winds I'd much rather saddlebag my ropes and rappel than lower.

On a multi-pitch rappel descent I see a lot of disadvantages to lowering: lowering is slower than rappelling; a moving rope (i.e. lowering) has more potential to dislodge loose rock than a stationary rope (i.e. rappelling); a lowered climber loses control of his/her descent if voice/sight contact is lost; at the very least, lowering will require much more communication between climbers than rappelling, often a difficult task in the best of conditions; etc. etc. etc.

Curious how the OP sets up their lower: direct off the harness? re-direct off the harness? direct off the anchor? if so do you re-direct the brake strand? do you use a friction hitch back-up?

Lowering direct off the harness is painful for the belayer; re-directed can really twist the crap out of your rope. Hopefully not what the OP has in mind. Lowering directly off the anchor using a re-direct through the fixed rap points requires creating an independent anchor point to lower from (more wasted time).

Highly recommend against lowering as the default for descending on multi-pitch descents.