Got benighted on Madame G's at the Gunks - left about 8 pieces behind!

Kevin Heckeler wrote:"The infamous Tradman has helped lead the next generation of booty seekers by creating simple “commandments,”

I can understand the desire for some guidelines regarding left gear, but I find a lot of this pretty silly. Do we really need something more than the Golden Rule here?

I don't expect anyone to make a special trip to recover my gear, nor am I asking anyone to do that. SHOULD someone pick up my gear and SHOULD they desire to return it, I would like to do what I can to make it easy for them and reward them for their efforts. Hence, this post...and really that was the only purpose of this post. There were a lot of comments that I really didn't appreciate, but ok, c'est la vie! Hopefully, you won't find yourself in the same situation at some point.

I live in Philly, had to work on Wednesday (day after this incident) and my parents were visiting for Thanksgiving. Otherwise, I would have gladly stayed the night or drove back to retrieve the gear myself. At this point, it's kinda a crap shoot. It's ridiculous for me to go up there, stress myself out and potentially waste money, fuel and time to retrieve it. So yeah...if you want to take advantage of this fact, then go ahead and keep the gear. But I think that's kind of a dick move, especially if you've read this thread. I know if I found a bunch of gear, I would do what I could within reason to return it.

Tyrel Fuller wrote:I love everything about his thread. Thank you for the entertainment.

Haha! Yeah...over 5000 views...even more popular than the poop along Epinephrine post...there is some consolation in that I guess.

Dan Africk wrote:Also Bob, it's a long shot, but you could contact Rock and Snow in New Paltz. People often turn in found gear to them, they're kind of a de facto lost & found service in the Gunks. I'm not sure how many people are aware of that though.. Mike, starting a climb too late in the day or bringing an inexperienced partner on a route that is a little too much for them are serious, but extremely common mistakes. I do think most climbers have made or will make one of those mistakes at some point. If you're better than that, good for you, let's argue some more.. jeez. PS- Bob if you need a suggestion for a good headlamp, let me know. I've found myself climbing or rapping in the dark more than I'd like, and having a bright, reliable headlamp makes a huge difference. (and a spare battery in my chalk bag..)

Thanks so much! Your posts have restored some of my faith in humanity. Do you have PayPal? I want to buy you a beer!!!

Kevin, that list is an excellent set of guidelines for how to be a complete and utter asshole. And pretty much a thief. But if you're the kind of person who thinks those 'rules' are a good idea, I doubt you need any further instruction on the subject. Seriously, whoever created that list, and anyone who follows it, is a despicable human being. Is it hard to comprehend that deliberately profiting from the unfortunate loss of another is wrong?

Just do the right thing, it's not complicated. There's really only one rule you need to follow, the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. In other words, don't be an asshole. Just because because other people are dicks sometimes doesn't make it ok for you to be also.

Bob, your kind words of appreciation are more than thanks enough. Drop me a line the next time you're in the city, and maybe we'll have that beer together.

Dan Africk wrote:Kevin, that list is an excellent set of guidelines for how to be a complete and utter asshole. And pretty much a thief. But if you're the kind of person who thinks those 'rules' are a good idea, I doubt you need any further instruction on the subject. Seriously, whoever created that list, and anyone who follows it, is a despicable human being. Is it hard to comprehend that deliberately profiting from the unfortunate loss of another is wrong? Just do the right thing, it's not complicated. There's really only one rule you need to follow, the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. In other words, don't be an asshole. Just because because other people are dicks sometimes doesn't make it ok for you to be also.

The list (as well as numerous other lists floating around, most of which predate any of us climbing) exist for a reason. Getting personal and calling people names only shows how out of touch (and control) YOU are.

Hmmmmmm...could I ever live with myself after bootying 8 perfectly good cams off some traverse left by some noobs?...yes indeedy I could! Very easily so!

Bob Johnson wrote: I can understand the desire for some guidelines regarding left gear, but I find a lot of this pretty silly. Do we really need something more than the Golden Rule here? I don't expect anyone to make a special trip to recover my gear, nor am I asking anyone to do that. SHOULD someone pick up my gear and SHOULD they desire to return it, I would like to do what I can to make it easy for them and reward them for their efforts. Hence, this post...and really that was the only purpose of this post. There were a lot of comments that I really didn't appreciate, but ok, c'est la vie! Hopefully, you won't find yourself in the same situation at some point. I live in Philly, had to work on Wednesday (day after this incident) and my parents were visiting for Thanksgiving. Otherwise, I would have gladly stayed the night or drove back to retrieve the gear myself. At this point, it's kinda a crap shoot. It's ridiculous for me to go up there, stress myself out and potentially waste money, fuel and time to retrieve it. So yeah...if you want to take advantage of this fact, then go ahead and keep the gear. But I think that's kind of a dick move, especially if you've read this thread. I know if I found a bunch of gear, I would do what I could within reason to return it.

Think of it this way - people typically don't learn or change without consequences for their actions. That's just basic psychology 101. Mistakes were made, and the loss of gear is part of the price paid. It increases the odds of not making the same mistake twice.

And I'm speaking from experience, having been in a rescue situation where a lot of gear was surrendered [the situation was of our own fault/doing]. I'm not a single bit sore, nor did I try to get the gear back. To each their own, just tone down the rhetoric as you don't know for what reasons things are the way they are. You were taking the high road, but now it seems that was just the front you needed to maintain to increase the odds of getting what you wanted. Now that getting the gear back might not happen, you're showing how bitter you actually are.

[I'm excusing myself from this thread now, as there is literally nothing more to say and people are starting to get personal]

--- Invalid image id: 109777054 ---

I always find these threads interesting. Every time I read through one though, the takeaways are always the same. Some people are assholes and will take the gear and not think twice about it, and others will return It because they see it as the right thing to do. Also, the people who justify taking the gear as an ok thing to do, tend to yell the loudest. Right or wrong, moral or immoral, ethical or unethical... whatever. I think we can all agree that returning the gear in a situation like this is the NICE thing to do. I tend to be happier when more people are nice than not nice. It seems pretty simple when you look at it that way.

I hope your gear makes it back to you. There are plenty of people who would return it if found. Unfortunately, there are also plenty of people who would keep it if found.

Stay classy MP.

~ Gabe

the word "dirtbag" didnt come from having a membership at REI and occasionally camping in the woods with a pizza joint next door

that being said, with as much booty as I have acquired in the last 20 years, I would have turned the pitch worth of gear over to the ranger or the shop. If it was just a piece or two it would be on my rack.

Miike wrote:the word "dirtbag" didnt come from having a membership at REI and occasionally camping in the woods with a pizza joint next door that being said, with as much booty as I have acquired in the last 20 years, I would have turned the pitch worth of gear over to the ranger or the shop. If it was just a piece or two it would be on my rack.

I wanna see you do it! No you would not have. It's like God is sending gear your way telling you to climb more and you turn your nose! I found somebody's frozen in fleece once and took a tool to that. Unfortunately the garment was damaged in the process but I still remember the thrill of bootying it. The only thing I would have returned is a wallet with somebody's ID. I would just put it in the nearest mailbox. Hanging ropes or draws or left pig bags I don't touch...unless it's a bailer draw and I think I can clean it.

eyesonice2014 wrote: I wanna see you do it! No you would not have. It's like God is sending gear your way telling you to climb more and you turn your nose! I found somebody's frozen in fleece once and took a tool to that. Unfortunately the garment was damaged in the process but I still remember the thrill of bootying it. The only thing I would have returned is a wallet with somebody's ID. I would just put it in the nearest mailbox. Hanging ropes or draws or left pig bags I don't touch...unless it's a bailer draw and I think I can clean it.

bail biners are good but what I really like is a shiny bail draw. my favorite was when the family from NY couldnt get up some climb near Lovers Leap years back and the kid told his dad he was sick of losing draws so he was going to down-whip. after the first whip he decided to lower off 2 draws and then they packed up and left after a tantrum or two. guess which route we got on next?

Miike wrote: bail biners are good but what I really like is a shiny bail draw. my favorite was when the family from NY couldnt get up some climb near Lovers Leap years back and the kid told his dad he was sick of losing draws so he was going to down-whip. after the first whip he decided to lower off 2 draws and then they packed up and left after a tantrum or two. guess which route we got on next?

Ye ye those are sweet! I can taste it!

Kevin Heckeler wrote: The list (as well as numerous other lists floating around, most of which predate any of us climbing) exist for a reason. Getting personal and calling people names only shows how out of touch (and control) YOU are.

I don't think Dan is out of touch. He is employing a certain ethic. The list employs a different ethic. In a perfect world, maybe everyone would live by the same code, but I suppose that's a debate for a philosophy class.

Not long ago, this would be booty plain and simple.

But now with MP, I'd feel like kind of a turd if I didn't make a minimal effort to find the owner and return the gear.

Bob- you're trolling us, right?

Miike wrote: favorite was when the family from NY couldnt get up some climb near Lovers Leap years back and the kid told his dad he was sick of losing draws so he was going to down-whip. after the first whip he decided to lower off 2 draws

down-whip. What does that mean?

rob.calm

Unclip, clean draw, whip, repeat.

rob.calm wrote: down-whip. What does that mean? rob.calm

The holy grail has always been the up-whip. Few are actually good enough to perform one and the attempts end up in a down-whip.

If people spent more time becoming competent and self reliant there would be less yuppie fueled threads such as this.