Climbing without health insurance.

Here in America, the greatest country on earth, the land of opportunity, I can't visit the doctor without destroying my financial future.

I've got a few things wrong with me. A toe that always throbs, a finger I can't straighten, constant knots in my back, sore kidneys, and a crowned tooth that is rotting underneath. I have to just make a list and keep looking for full time work and hoping that these ailments will not hurt me permanently.

I don't know if Obamacare is the answer but I do believe that every citizen of a country has the right to health without financial ruin.

TR purist wrote: dont hate on the fatties Dave, it wont be long until they have us outnumbered in the USofA.

I don't hate them; I just don't want to pay for their hedonistic lifestyle choices through increased insurance rates.

nicelegs wrote:Here in America, the greatest country on earth, the land of opportunity, I can't visit the doctor without destroying my financial future. I've got a few things wrong with me. A toe that always throbs, a finger I can't straighten, constant knots in my back, sore kidneys, and a crowned tooth that is rotting underneath. I have to just make a list and keep looking for full time work and hoping that these ailments will not hurt me permanently. I don't know if Obamacare is the answer but I do believe that every citizen of a country has the right to health without financial ruin.

........Solution...Marry a woman from the UK..or a man... Sorry I am taken

Here is a quick look on how much insurance will actually cost under the new Affordable Care act.

washingtonpost.com/blogs/wo…

In short, 49% of Americans will still have inadequate insurance if America follows the trend outlined in the document. Their bronze level plans only cover 60% of a patient's total expense, which is garbage insurance and completely worthless for anything more serious than a broken leg.

Depends on the max out of pocket expense limits on these plans 20kn. If it is $5000 then that isn't so bad...but if it is $15,000 (as is mine now) then yeah... its not going to help that much.

Those plans advertised above are not health insurance for the people, they are financial insurance for the corporations who created the current American health care system. If you had the "bronze" Obamacare plan, could you afford to pay 40% of a hospital bill at 2013 prices (and that's after you have paid thousands of dollars on premiums, copays, and deductibles)? Obama blew this one and caved without a real fight for single payer(or maybe he's really just a mole for the insurance industry).

Meanwhile, the CEO of UnitedHealth Group "earned" $35 million in the past year, down from $48 million the year before that.

A bronze plan will have a maximum annual out of pocket that is about $6,400 in 2014.

Ty Morrison-Heath wrote:Depends on the max out of pocket expense limits on these plans 20kn. If it is $5000 then that isn't so bad...but if it is $15,000 (as is mine now) then yeah... its not going to help that much.

hmm well I am wondering where they get the 60% figure then.

David Sahalie wrote: I don't hate them; I just don't want to pay for their hedonistic lifestyle choices through increased insurance rates.

Well, by the same token they would say they dont want to pay for your bills when you fall off El Cap and bust your butt. Of course we both know that far more people go to the ER through Burger King emergencies than rock climbing emergencies, but I am pretty sure a hardcore rock climber is much more likely to suffer from a serious injury than someone who doesn't climb. I dont think it is very common that a career dedicated rock climber goes his or her entire life without visiting the ER for some type of climbing injury. Push it hard enough long enough and eventually that 0 Master Cam is going to rip and you're gonna deck! That's why everyone should just top rope on 11mm static ropes in the gym. :)

20 kN wrote: hmm well I am wondering where they get the 60% figure then.)

That is determined actuarially based on a standard basket of health care services. A plan could meet the 60% actuarial standard by having a low deductible and a high co-pay, or a high deductible and a low co-pay. But either way, the out of pocket is capped.

20 kN wrote: I dont think it is very common that a career dedicated rock climber goes his or her entire life without visiting the ER for some type of climbing injury.

This may be true of people pushing trad limits on questionable gear, but this is a small minority of people climbing.

In 30 years of climbing, I know one guy that died and 2 two trips to ER for broken ankles while bouldering.

The vast majority of injuries I get and everyone else I know are overuse injuries.

I know way more people who have gotten injured enough to go to ER through mountain biking and snow sports.

20 kN wrote: hmm well I am wondering where they get the 60% figure then.

I think the 60% figure is for the amount you'll pay leading up to the max out of pocket expense amount. So you'll pay 60% of your bill until $6,400 dollars (cited by PRRose) at which point the rest will be picked up by insurance.

Ty Morrison-Heath wrote: I think the 60% figure is for the amount you'll pay leading up to the max out of pocket expense amount. So you'll pay 60% of your bill until $6,400 dollars (cited by PRRose) at which point the rest will be picked up by insurance.

No, that is not correct.

The 60% is determined actuarially with respect to the policy as sold to a large number of people who will consume a theoretical basket of healthcare services.

What you pay will depend on your policy. As I mentioned, the insurance company could meet the 60% with a low deductible/high copay policy, a high deductible/low copay policy, or something in between.

David Sahalie wrote: This may be true of people pushing trad limits on questionable gear, but this is a small minority of people climbing.

ER-worth injuries are not limited to just that category. Gyms as a whole regularly report injuries from all three forms of climbing they offer. Specifically, boulderers seem to suffer the most broken legs and ankles in the indoor environment.

Also, if we take a quick look at any random page of the injuries and accidents section of the forum, or any random page in Accidents in Modern Mountaineering, we will quickly find that injuries from serious trad runners climbing R- and X-rated routes are the minority. Many more injuries occur from failing to tie in properly, rappel accidents, GriGri accidents, sport climbing accidents, entry-level trad accidents and so on and so fourth.

This topic is admittedly kind of hard to argue because there are no real hard data available that I know of. But I can say that most of the climbers I know who push themselves (although not necessarily on marginal gear) have broken something at some point.

Anyone know of any useful traveling health insurance for international use (Mexico and Canada)? I know the AAC offers some, but it's a bit ridiculous. Only $10,000 of coverage, expandable to $100,000, but at the price of $300 a month (plus membership fee)...

Unless you have to be rescued just make sure when you go to the ER your reason for getting hurt was like hiking and slipped or something. Most insurance will not cover a climbing accident at all.

20 kN wrote:Anyone know of any useful traveling health insurance for international use (Mexico and Canada)? I know the AAC offers some, but it's a bit ridiculous. Only $10,000 of coverage, expandable to $100,000, but at the price of $300 a month (plus membership fee)...

Have a look at adventuresportsinsurance.co…. Up to $1 million in medical coverage and they cover mountaineering up to 7,000m. Premiums are typically a couple of dollars a day, depending on coverage amount, age and deductible.

AIG Travel Guard (www.travelguard.com) offers optional adventure sports coverage with their "My Travel Guard" plan, but the basic plan includes a bunch of stuff you may not need e.g. flight cancellation insurance.

If your US health insurance plan includes out-of-network emergency coverage then you'll probably be covered for emergency medical expenses outside the US. However, you'll have to pay the foreign provider yourself and file a claim for reimbursement when you get back home.

Martin le Roux wrote: Have a look at adventuresportsinsurance.co…. Up to $1 million in medical coverage and they cover mountaineering up to 7,000m. Premiums are typically a couple of dollars a day, depending on coverage amount, age and deductible. AIG Travel Guard (www.travelguard.com) offers optional adventure sports coverage with their "My Travel Guard" plan, but the basic plan includes a bunch of stuff you may not need e.g. flight cancellation insurance. If your US health insurance plan includes out-of-network emergency coverage then you'll probably be covered for emergency medical expenses outside the US. However, you'll have to pay the foreign provider yourself and file a claim for reimbursement when you get back home.

I was looking at that. I have always been curious how a company like that can offer $1m in coverage for $less than $2 a day, where other companies, such as those listed by the AAC, charge double the premium for less than 1/10th the maximum coverage.

20 kN wrote:I have always been curious how a company like that can offer $1m in coverage for $less than $2 a day, where other companies, such as those listed by the AAC, charge double the premium for less than 1/10th the maximum coverage.

The difference between $100k and $1m in travel medical insurance is a mainly a marketing gimmick. If you're badly injured then as soon as you're stable you'll almost certainly be transported back to the US for treatment. At that point your regular US health insurance plan will take over and the travel insurance company will be off the hook. (And if you don't have US health insurance then you'll be personally responsible). The travel insurance company may also be able to recover some or all of your out-of-country medical expenses from your US health insurance plan, assuming you have one.