Comparison of books on mental game/mental training?

I have now read Rock Warrior's Way and was slightly bothered by how much of it was what I considered to be New Age mumbo jumbo. Perhaps my opinion was colored by Ilgner's appreciation for Castanedas' Don Juan, whom I consider a charlatan invented in a hallucinogenic stupor, not some great spiritual leader. At any rate, Rock Warrior's Way doesn't really do it for me. I am still waiting to read Espresso Lessons, which I am told include more exercises than vague platitudes. I am also reading Maximum Climbing by Eric Horst, who also includes a lot of information on the psychology and neurology at play during climbing, as well as specific exercises and tips that can be used for mental training. Vertical Mind just came out and I was wondering if anybody has had any experience with that one and can compare it to the previous two. Thanks.

No mental training, just climb.

Do you think our grandfathers and great-grandfathers worked on mental training before storming the beaches at Normandy? No, they just did the job that needed being done. End of story.

Decide what climb you wanna do and then commit. It's that simple. Everybody gets nervous before big climbs, but once you're committed the details of the experience usually occupy the mind and you're no longer scared.

Please note that I'm not a psychologist nor have I ever been to a psychologist. Well, that's not true because I once went to a reverse psychologist who told me to not kill myself. I still don't know what he meant by that.

As someone who works in the field of mental training, there are a ton of resources out there, both good and bad. The challenge is figuring out which is which.

Sure, it's all well and good to say "pick what you want to climb and commit" but the ultimate question is HOW.

I haven't read any climbing specific books on mental training, but one book I use with pretty much every athlete I work with (regardless of sport) is "Heads Up Baseball" by Ken Ravizza. Granted, the book is about (you guessed it) Baseball, but the exercises and lessons within can be applied to any endeavor. All you need to do is simply put it in a different context. It gives a good understanding of the underlying principles, but, most importantly, is full of practical exercises you can use at the gym and the crag.

In general, look for books with concrete exercises that you can do, and that help you understand the difference between what your process is (i.e., the way that you climb), and what your desired outcome is (i.e., what you're trying to do).

I liked Expresso Lessons. It reinforced a lot of the exercises we did when I took Arno's "Falling and Commitment" class. I fell a few years back and I'd been struggling with my head ever since. Two years ago at the start of my Rifle season I had my head up my ass the whole weekend. I started getting super pissy that day and could not commit to routes I had dialed as warmups in previous seasons. So I decided to take Arno's course at Rock'n and Jammin and for me personally it was just what I needed. Most of the people that take that class will be newer climbers starting to lead their first climbs and want to get past the falling portion associated with leading climbs. However I found it to be beneficial for nearly any climber. We learned how to take safe top-rope falls which then lead to bigger lead falls in the gym on a vertical wall. Another exercise that we learned that I thought was awesome was the Commitment portion of the class. This was an exercise where we climbed "rainbow" on a wall. As soon as you grabbed a hold, or positioned your foot on a hold that you zoned in on you didn't reposition your foot, or hand placement. It seems like a no brainer, but how many times have you been on a hard onsight and spent half the route hunting and pecking for the best hold, only to pump yourself out? This taught me how to commit to a hold as soon as I grabbed it and just move to the next section of the climb. After that class I had a very productive climbing season.

I'm not telling you to go out and sign up for his class (Typically $100). I could care less. However everything I learned in that class was in his book Expresso Lessons which is a short book and an easy read with out all the frivolous info in the Rock Warriors Way. The main thing I learned after taking the class and reading the book is that it's better to do a little bit each gym/outdoor climbing session rather than a lot only once a month. Meaning make fall training part of your warmup routine. You usually spend 15-20 mins warming up on easy routes anyway at the gym. Start taking a few safe falls with a trusted belayer during that time. It'll make the time you spend trying the harder routes later that evening a lot easier because you'll be able to focus on climbing and not falling because hopefully you have a safe belayer and you'll be comfortable falling if that happens on your projects rather than yelling "TAKE!!!" all the time.

amazon.com/Out-Climbers-Mak…

The enormocast had the author of "The Vertical Mind", Don McGrath on not to long ago? If you haven't listened to that I highly recommend it. I also read "The Rock Warriors Way" and agree with you a bit. There were definitely useful bits of information in it, but I had listened to that interview before which I think helped. They seem to have similar ideas, but McGrath seems to be more scientic and let spiritual. I haven't read "vertical mind" yet, but plan to this winter.

there was an earlier forum discussion on Vertical Mind

mountainproject.com/v/book-…

I second the recommendation for Dave MacLeod's "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes". Very concise, to the point, down to business climbers manual. It's like you took all the climbing training (mental and physical) books together, got rid of all the voodoo and non-voodoo, yet-to-be-proven scientific citations, big words and all the "I, ME, MY" examples and put it into a clearly written instructional manual on what to do for every kind of climber.

Doligo said: I second the recommendation for Dave MacLeod's "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes". Very concise, to the point, down to business climbers manual. It's like you took all the climbing training (mental and physical) books together, got rid of all the voodoo and non-voodoo, yet-to-be-proven scientific citations, big words and all the "I, ME, MY" examples and put it into a clearly written instructional manual on what to do for every kind of climber.

+1 - solid book for sure, I appreciate Macleod's directness and his way of approaching some things.

dont forget "mental training", learning to manage high levels of stimulation, centering, etc, etc isnt new or specific to climbing. Check out others (if you're seeking direction) like Bodhidharma and his original zen scriptures (translated by Red Pine) or Osho and his discourses, or Buddha and his teachings, etc, etc. Dont limit yourself to modern climbers only!

I should have mentioned that I have read 9/10 Climbers and was disappointed. Although many good points are brought up, I felt that MacLeod simply spouts platitudes and that he tries to do too much in too few pages. Reading books specifically written for mental and physical training seems to be more effective. At any rate, I don't see it being worth the 20 dollar price tag...

scienceguy288 wrote:
> 9 out of 10 Climbers ...
> I felt that MacLeod simply spouts platitudes and that
> he tries to do too much in too few pages.

I would surely not call MacLeod's sections on overcoming fear of falling (and with Trad leading) "spouting platitudes". Seemed very specific and detailed.
. (and his advice on finger-strength training and campusing is very specific and straight to the point.)
My suggestion is to get "9 out of 10 climbers" and read, and digest, and re-read.

Eric Horst's book surveys and describes almost every conceivable approach. So if you haven't heard all those self-help approaches and techniques, that could be helpful.
What the book is short on is evidence for which of those approaches works for climbing.

It does have some inspiring stories of climbers who exhibited strong mental qualities. But little evidence that those climbers used any of the techniques in the book to build those qualities.

Ken

kenr wrote:scienceguy288 wrote: >My suggestion is to get "9 out of 10 climbers" and read, and digest, and re-read.

+1

Also thought platitudes are exactly what Macleod's book did NOT have..

Even the simple, common-sense, "why didn't I think of that myself?" stuff was pretty good. For example, if you don't get more comfortable failing in front of others, you won't improve at your weaknesses. For example, if you suck at slopers, but are too afraid of flailing in front of the hotties at the gym on the sloper routes, you won't get better at slopers.

Christian wrote:Also thought platitudes are exactly what Macleod's book did NOT have.. Even the simple, common-sense, "why didn't I think of that myself?" stuff was pretty good. For example, if you don't get more comfortable failing in front of others, you won't improve at your weaknesses. For example, if you suck at slopers, but are too afraid of flailing in front of the hotties at the gym on the sloper routes, you won't get better at slopers.

Clearly. I realize that you guys enjoyed the book. I didn't. I will agree that his section on falling is excellent, though. I just don't think it's the kind of book that I need to own and reread for reference.

My personal favorite amongst the mental training books remains Warrior's Way, although I too dislike the Castenada references. I think this book makes mindfulness the central theme in climbing improvement, which has beneficial effects beyond the crag. Took me a long time to reach this opinion.

I appreciate Horst's book whenever I reread it. He was well ahead of his time and the issues he describes are the same ones described in all the various books. However I dislike his "try this simple mental training trick and climb better immediately" tone. Nevertheless, I think if one applied his suggestions, they would be helpful.

I didn't much care for Vertical Mind. They use the construct of "scripts" (in other words, established habits) to explain psychological difficulties and suggest ways to develop alternative scripts. Many folks seem to like this approach and the OP may find it more accessible than Arno's approach. For me, it seems to miss the essence of why I am really trying to improve at our useless, beloved activity.

Personally I found "9 out of 10 Climbers" transformative and suspect that anyone who feels it isn't worth $20 will not be satisfied with any of the other books.

Finally, if you have plenty of spare cash or a good local library, consider reading "Applied Sport Psychology: Personal Growth to Peak Performance" edited by Jean Williams. It is an up to date textbook on the subject with more than enough scientific citations to satisfy even Ken. There's nothing in it specifically about climbing, but it will give you the scientific basis underlying the other books mentioned above. I was able to borrow the 6th edition which is from 2010. There's a 7th edition published this year, but I'm not willing to spend $170 for it!

Mark E Dixon wrote:My personal favorite amongst the mental training books remains Warrior's Way, although I too dislike the Castenada references. I think this book makes mindfulness the central theme in climbing improvement, which has beneficial effects beyond the crag. Took me a long time to reach this opinion. I appreciate Horst's book whenever I reread it. He was well ahead of his time and the issues he describes are the same ones described in all the various books. However I dislike his "try this simple mental training trick and climb better immediately" tone. Nevertheless, I think if one applied his suggestions, they would be helpful. I didn't much care for Vertical Mind. They use the construct of "scripts" (in other words, established habits) to explain psychological difficulties and suggest ways to develop alternative scripts. Many folks seem to like this approach and the OP may find it more accessible than Arno's approach. For me, it seems to miss the essence of why I am really trying to improve at our useless, beloved activity. Personally I found "9 out of 10 Climbers" transformative and suspect that anyone who feels it isn't worth $20 will not be satisfied with any of the other books. Finally, if you have plenty of spare cash or a good local library, consider reading "Applied Sport Psychology: Personal Growth to Peak Performance" edited by Jean Williams. It is an up to date textbook on the subject with more than enough scientific citations to satisfy even Ken. There's nothing in it specifically about climbing, but it will give you the scientific basis underlying the other books mentioned above. I was able to borrow the 6th edition which is from 2010. There's a 7th edition published this year, but I'm not willing to spend $170 for it!

Mark, you may be able to offer exactly the perspective that I need, given that you've read both Maximum Climbing and Vertical Mind. I suspect both have many of the same exercises and themes. Is there anything (things?) that Vertical Mind does better than Max Climbing and/or vice versa? Also, does the former cover anything that latter does not, and/or vice versa? Thanks for the detailed response.

marty funkhouser wrote: Do you think our grandfathers and great-grandfathers worked on mental training before storming the beaches at Normandy? No, they just did the job that needed being done.

Actually, yes they did, extensively. Or at least special warfare UDT did. BUD/S, the Navy SEAL's basic training program, covers in extreme depth mental training. Most of the operators I have talked to say that special warfare training is more mental than physical actually.

scienceguy288 wrote: Mark, you may be able to offer exactly the perspective that I need, given that you've read both Maximum Climbing and Vertical Mind. I suspect both have many of the same exercises and themes. Is there anything (things?) that Vertical Mind does better than Max Climbing and/or vice versa? Also, does the former cover anything that latter does not, and/or vice versa? Thanks for the detailed response.

Hmm, I don't have a copy of VM, and my memory isn't that great. Busy for a couple of days, but will share what I remember when I get a chance.

Can you just borrow a copy and see what you think?

Mark E Dixon wrote: Hmm, I don't have a copy of VM, and my memory isn't that great. Busy for a couple of days, but will share what I remember when I get a chance. Can you just borrow a copy and see what you think?

Alas, that is my problem. I don't know anyone who owns it and it isn't in the library yet. It also doesn't have a preview section on Amazon. I'd greatly appreciate your review. Thanks.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Hmm, I don't have a copy of VM, and my memory isn't that great. Busy for a couple of days, but will share what I remember when I get a chance. Can you just borrow a copy and see what you think?

Not to be ungrateful or pushy, but any chance your memory has been refreshed (this is more a reminder in case it fell through the cracks)?

Here's what I remember-

VM starts with a longish section describing the physiologic/psychologic basis for behavior. Emphasis is on "scripts" which are learned sequences of behavior/beliefs/emotions/etc. The basis for their advice is to replace old scripts with new ones by building new habits.

This is followed by a section on falling, which I found very similar to Warrior's Way.

Next is a series of sections on other issues- fear of failure, fear of performing in front of others, etc.
IIRC, the "cure" for these was along the lines of "think about how little anybody else cares about your climbing and get over it."

There is a chapter on how best to informally coach (and be coached by) your partner.

On the whole, I think I have gone dangerously beyond my abilities trying to characterize the book from memory! I would be happy to be corrected where needed.