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Figure 9 "follow through / retraced" for tie in? (And/Or Upgraded Yosemite Finish)

Original Post
Christopher Needham · · The Woodlands · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

Does anyone tie in with a Figure 9 "retraced"? I see people debating quite often over all these tie in knots and finishes... But it seems to me a Figure 9 follow through would be the end-all tie in knot? (overly redundant, super strong, and easy to untie) However, just googling around I almost begin wondering if anyone ever ties this version of a figure 9 ever for anything.

Side-question: Can anyone source anything legitimate/official (studies / companies / guidebooks) than endorse the "upgraded yosemite finish" to a figure 8 retraced? By that I mean people talk about how a yosemite finish can cause the knot to roll, so many climbers have begun to do an extra wrap before they tuck the end back down in order to prevent this. I've also heard this called a "figure 9 finish" or just "figure 8 tucked with an extra wrap". Seems reasonable, but Im weary of doing anything simply recommended by random individuals on the internet - since Im not some Knotmaster.

Basically, as you can probably tell, I'm just looking for a tie in knot that is easier to untie without compromising the proven the safety of the easy and reliable figure 8 retraced.

tenpins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 30

newsflash: there is no 'end all' knot.

angus Morrison · · carbondale, colorado · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 25

Megachris
I used to use it all the time.
(Figure-9) It works well with skinny ropes to make them easy to untie the knot after a fall or lowering off.
It does ADD a complex finish to your knot. And you have to to perfectly dress the knot each time. Which is a good thing to do everytime you tie-in anyway.
The AMGA says a regular figure-eight with eight inches of tail is plenty strong. I agree with them.
I just use this knot mostly for bouncy TR sessions and when im looking at sport whippers where my pumped arms/hands cant untie myself after.
The UYF can roll if used as a belay loop and is harder to confirm if correctly tied.
IMHO

I used to teach this knot to friends and now I just teach the regular 8. Just simple and more straight forward to teach.

Jeff Johnston · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 110

Other than a loosely tied knot I have in no way seen an fig 8 roll except for under lab conditions where the knot was placed at angle were the hydraulics pulled the knot apart. The closet way this would be replicated in real world would be tying two ropes together in parallel and not re-threading them, think EDK but with a fig 8. Even still rappelling/body weight is not enough to get a properly tied knot to roll.
I would stick to a fig 8, either as a Yosemite finish or a fisherman's back up.
because...
-As far as tying in I have never had a fig 8 that I could not untie even after several whippers.
-Its easy to identify. when conducting a buddy check the fig 8 is I feel the easiest to check.
-takes up less rope than a fig 9
-I can tie a fig 8 in the dark, its easy.
-in the 20 years of climbing I have NEVER had an fig 8 break.

angus Morrison · · carbondale, colorado · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 25

-Its easy to identify. when conducting a buddy check the fig 8 is I feel the easiest to check.
-takes up less rope than a fig 9
-I can tie a fig 8 in the dark, its easy.
-in the 20 years of climbing I have NEVER had an fig 8 break.

And Jeff has several good points too!

No need to add a complex finish to a BOMER knot

Christopher Needham · · The Woodlands · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
tenpins wrote:newsflash: there is no 'end all' knot.
And by this you mean... "the reality is, there are lots of great knots, but no single knot can do everything."
Christopher Needham · · The Woodlands · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

Thanks for the responses. Unfortunately, at least with the ropes my friends and I use, after a few whippers and with pumped forearms the fig 8 retraced can be VERY frustrating to untie... Many times we have to break it enough to slip a carabiner in, then 2 guys yank on it with all their might. I don't know - maybe we are just big for climbers, or maybe we do long sessions for any given tie in. At this point, almost all my friends have switched to yosemite finish or bowliner. They are all trying to get me to switch and thus I'm doing this research. (usually, the belayer will break the exhausted climber's knot - therefore me tying in with a regular figure 8 is kind of viewed as uncourteous.)

tenpins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 30

use a thicker rope. Climbers across the world use a multitude of knots to varying degrees. The 8 and bowline have been the standard for a very long time. Bowlines are super easy to untie. Just give it a look at regular intervals.

Doug S · · W Pa · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 55
LEG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0

I've heard of some big fellas going thru their tie in points twice before retracing the 8. More friction taken by the harness lessened the friction on the knot, I presume...

Christopher Needham · · The Woodlands · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0
LEG wrote:I've heard of some big fellas going thru their tie in points twice before retracing the 8. More friction taken by the harness lessened the friction on the knot, I presume...
Yes I've had this recommended to me and I did it for a while until a very experienced guide at Yosemite told me not to. He didn't elaborate.

If anyone else cares to give their though on the double tie in points concept feel free. Another reason I enjoyed this was the added friction made it very easy to keep your knot as close as possible to your harness.
angus Morrison · · carbondale, colorado · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 25

megachris,
The figure 9 will solve your problem. Just make sure it is properly dressed. Eaiser to confirm if tied correctly than the bowline. Give it a try. Worked for me.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Yes the extra pass or Yosemite finish.Well the Internet has done some funny things to this very useful finish to a figure 8. It serves well to tuck the tail neatly out of your way. It also makes it easier to untie after you fall on it. But there was a test that showed if you were to pull on it as if it were a Belay loop it can roll at somewhat high loads. If you do not use it like a belay loop it is completely bomber and totally fine. If someone actually tells you it is unsafe ask them to explain. They will come up with a bunch of gibberish. The Internet bla bla bla.

Using a figure 8 to join two ropes together where the tails are on the same side of the knot is actually unsafe. This not rolls fairly easily.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Do not ring load a yosemite finished figure 8 ... The DAV has an article about it somewhere, there have been accidents

A figure 8 is not very hard to untie if

- you tie it properly nice and snug and its dressed properly

- you DONT use the yosemite finish

- when you fall the bottom strand of the knot will flip over a the next lowest strand ... Flip this back up as best as possible

- break the knot by twisting it back and in yr hands like yr squeezing a towel

- PUSH the strands loose, and always start with the locking strands not the locked ones ... Dont simply try to pull it apart

Ive taken repeated whippers while projecting and never had a big issue untying once i figured out the "secret"

Im not saying its as easy as a bowline, but once i show folks how to tie and untie it properly they never have any real issues

One of these days ill make a vid of multiple whippahs on a sport climb and untying the knot

;)

Derek Jf · · Northeast · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 335

i used the yose finish for a while- lower profile, cleaner to grab up when clipping. its just a b*tch to untie after a climb if you take any sort of fall above your last piece of pro.
a reg 8 is fine

Christopher Needham · · The Woodlands · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

bearbreeder: Post the video here when you make it :)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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