Tufa Climbing in the States?

Thanks Kennynoyce, I should use the 5 piece sleeved bolt as my descriptor. Sleeved anchors are recommended over the wedge on soft rock.

When tested the wedge bolts in the softer part of the cave came out easily enough; the sleeved anchors did not.

manuel rangel wrote:Thanks Kennynoyce, I should use the 5 piece sleeved bolt as my descriptor. Sleeved anchors are recommended over the wedge on soft rock. When tested the wedge bolts in the softer part of the cave came out easily enough; the sleeved anchors did not.

No problem, in soft rock many times as you hammer an expansion bolt into the hole it will actually enlarge the hole and the rock dust created will gum up the cone making it more difficult for the clip or sleeve to slide up the cone and engage. With a wedge bolt this means that the clip simply won't engage and you'll never achieve a high pull out strength. With a sleeve bolt (5-piece) the sleeve is held in place by the bolt head so it will pull the cone into the sleeve and expand it even with the rock dust problem.

The problem is that even if the sleeve bolt tightens down initially, with the rock being that soft the hole will enlarge with repeated loading of the bolt and the sleeve bolt will loose all of its holding power as well.

For really soft rock like you're talking about, glue ins are really the only long term solution since they actually strengthen the rock they are placed in.

cuba scuba

manuel rangel wrote:Thanks Kennynoyce, I should use the 5 piece sleeved bolt as my descriptor. Sleeved anchors are recommended over the wedge on soft rock. When tested the wedge bolts in the softer part of the cave came out easily enough; the sleeved anchors did not.

Actually, a glue-in bolt is far superior to any type of expansion bolt in soft rock, so it's good that glue-ins are replacing them.

However, my original point remains; that stainless steel bolts in a place where there are lots of tufas and stalactites will corrode rapidly and break due to SCC. Stainless glue-ins generally last longer but they still break.

How long have the bolts been in the wall? The longest I've seen high-quality 316 stainless expansion bolts last in a tufa'd rock is ~10 years in Kalymnos. The bolt in the photo below shows all the classic signs of imminent failure due to SCC. And it did break off.

A approximately 10 year old Raumer 316 "marine grade" stainless steel bolt in Kalymnos.

The glue-in bolts shown below exhibit very little indication of fatal SCC. 90% of the visible metal looks fine, but the bolts are cracked completely through.

These glue-in bolts, ~10 years old, broke with a tap of a hammer. Notice the sharp edges and granular surface at the break. There's no ductile (pulled taffy) material which indicates they were completely cracked through before being struck.

Since this post referred to tufa climbing in the states, I limited my response. Thailand has an incredible problem with corrosion and SS bolts. The guide books usually note the type of bolt and when it was pounded in.

As for comparing Kalymnos, an island, to El Chonta, a relatively shallow cave, I am not certain it applies across the board. Folks there get up close and personal with the bolts. I think it is prudent to have a survey occasionally and if I find any results I'll post them to make a real comparison.

manuel rangel wrote:Since this post referred to tufa climbing in the states, I limited my response. Thailand has an incredible problem with corrosion and SS bolts. The guide books usually note the type of bolt and when it was pounded in.

It's not a big problem anymore. The Thaitanium Project (thaitaniumproject.com) has been replacing corroded stainless bolts with titanium for 5 years now. They've placed many, many thousands of Ti bolts. While there's still some old routes that need to be rebolted, all new routes are established with Ti. No one in their right mind climbs on the steel routes. The problem has been solved.

manuel rangel wrote:As for comparing Kalymnos, an island, to El Chonta, a relatively shallow cave, I am not certain it applies across the board. Folks there get up close and personal with the bolts. I think it is prudent to have a survey occasionally and if I find any results I'll post them to make a real comparison.

Don't think that, because El Chonta isn't near the ocean, that it won't develop SCC; it will. Exposure to sea water accelerates SCC but it's not required. The cause of SCC is dissolved limestone in rainwater, the exact same thing that is responsible for the formation of tufas and stalactites.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Monterrey is like southern Texas anyways. These tufas are right before Costco practically in the city.

Tufas

More tufas

steve edwards wrote:...like Canada. I have missed this crag. Heard rumors of some garden spot on a western island with iffy access. Even saw some old pics. Didn't notice tufas in them but I think they were purposefully obscure, like Bigfoot photos.

I can confirm there are almost no tufas in the Bow Valley or the Rockies. Check out Horne Lake on Vancouver Island for Canada tufa.

mountainproject.com/v/lake-…

Lake nicknack in TN actually has some awesome tufa climbing. Plus is DWS!

Demyanek wrote:http://www.mountainproject.com/v/lake-nickajack-deep-water-soloing/108052232 Lake nicknack in TN actually has some awesome tufa climbing. Plus is DWS!

damnit, beat me to it. Good luck DWSing right now, though. Speaking of, there's also some good DWSing on the cliff under the Hunter. If you find the spot, you can even tie up a kayak or a canoe so it doesn't float away.

There's some tufa action to be had in NE Washington, in China bend/Marcus. I haven't been there myself, but there are some photos online.

Holy Tufa, Mark Grundon. Thanks for digging this thread back up. Those look pretty awesome. Where exactly are these tufas in Sothern Texas? (It's kinda of a big state.)

Tennessee looks pretty sweet, too.

TommyWiggins wrote: Where exactly are these tufas in Sothern Texas? (It's kinda of a big state.) .

Monterrey, Texas.

Actually, my friend sent me a sweet video from the area:

vimeo.com/147347125#at=1

Also, Tufas tend to hang with the commies:

Vinales

More Vinales

Bayamon Nuevo in Puerto Rico has some tufas. Sorta U.S.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/nuevo-bayamn-us--puerto-rico/106361084

Also if you want to help Diente here is a link to the talking about the petition we have going. Link to El Diente petition forum