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Will climbing crags go the way of dams?

Original Post
Rwwon ru · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 35

I am using the title to draw in a comparison, part of which comes from a field ecology class I took during my undergrad. In this class we talked about the life cycle of many dams - specifically how they have limited lifespans that can't realistically be extended. When a dam is built, the water collects behind it so that (and depending on the use of the dam) water can be used for electricity generation, or evenly dispensed through out the year for farmers, etc.

However, when the water slows down as it approaches the main reservoir, silt that was being carried with the water separates and gathers at the bottom of a reservoir. Thus, overtime these reservoirs lose their capacity and become obsolete. In some European countries when this happens, another dam will be built above or below the existing, and will serve as the new damn. This is done because the cost of removing all the silt far outweighs just building a new one.

Now the comparison to a climbing crag. This might not be prevalent in a lot of areas, but I wonder about some of the crags that have been climbed on so much that the rock becomes smooth, greasy, or even polished from so many ascents - to the point that people move onto newly discovered or developed crags. We can't reasonably "build a new cliff" right behind or in front of the existing one, and some of this wear on the rock seems irreversible. Yes, I know there so much out there yet to be climbed on and that this isn't really a problem, but over time... well, you get what I am driving at.

I'm curious if there are successful remedies being used on the rock itself to restore it to its former glory, and how extensive that is? Or do we simply say "nah, we don't really climb there anymore, its way too slick/greasy/polished. We go over here now."

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

Yosemite seems to be holding up ok except for the routes that were pin scarred early on. I have yet to see a crag get too smooth or greasy from climbing. Cant think of any spot where folks are saying "I just cant climb here anymore because the rock has been climbed on too much". It might get over bolted or chalk may build up but chalk in most cases can be brushed or washed off or even washed off by rain. I just dont see any climbing areas going the way of a dam.

beensandbagged · · smallest state · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 0

There certainly are some climbs that become polished. On many cliffs there are paths that are water polished, they were rough at one time do you think about "restoring" them? The passage of water, wind, or people, may smooth rock it is all part of the evolution of that piece of stone, deal with it the way it is and don't screw with it. Improve your technique, gain new skills, go someplace else.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

I get the sense that the OP either not been climbing very long or has a very limited view of climbing. If not for one of those two starting points, I don't understand how this thought came about.

Kevin DeWeese · · @failfalling - Oakland, Ca · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 981

OP should take a trip to Indian Rock in Berkeley. Those problems are the slickest I've dealt with and people line up daily to make them even smoother. Sometimes an area has so much history that climbing the worn holds and edges is part of the allure because you're wading into the historic river that has come before you.

Not a bad twist on the "chipping is ok sonetimes" troll by changing it to "restoring the rock to its former glory" though the lifespan of a dam comparison is clunky at best and inapplicable at best.

Gym climber mentality at its worst.

Though the concept of reservoir sedimentation is interesting in its own right.
"The rate of reservoir sedimentation depends mainly on the size of a reservoir relative to the amount of sediment flowing into it: a small reservoir on an extremely muddy river will rapidly lose capacity; a large reservoir on a very clear river may take centuries to lose an appreciable amount of storage. Large reservoirs in the US lose storage capacity at an average rate of around 0.2 per cent per year, with regional variations ranging from 0.5 per cent per year in the Pacific states to just 0.1 per cent in reservoirs in the northeast."
Source: internationalrivers.org/sed…

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

There are routes in red river gorge that would likely fit into this. Not that they aren't climbable anymore but the grade on them are probably a lot harder than they used to be.

This will depend on the type of rock, some rock will not change but other rock is soft and will change a lot over time.

Jacob Smith · · Seattle, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 230

As most people seems to be saying, although with far more condescension than I feel is deserved, the answer is no.
Sedimentary buildup behind a dam is an inevitable result of blocking a flowing river and it negatively impacts the functioning of the damn 100% of the time. The polishing of a rock climbing route due to high traffic is neither inevitable nor necessarily negative. There are certainly routes that have become more difficult, but there are also routes that have become much less painful.
The basic problem with the analogy is that only the most popular routes become polished, and popular routes tend to stay popular regardless of how polished they become. As far as I know, there are literally zero cases of a crag declining in popularity because it is too popular.

Rwwon ru · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 35

Thank you for your comments. My apologies if the dam analogy didn't quite dovetail with the thought at hand, I thought it was an interesting parallel but didn't necessarily want anyone to get hung up on it in detail and be dismissive about the whole thing.

I just think its interesting that some routes, though very few ((EDIT)and yes popularity will delay this), will become under utilized due to their over utilization - the rock face, in this sense, becomes like a finite resource. (EDIT) The question then becomes - do we preserve certain rock faces for future generations based on the fact that we don't want to leave them with all this polished soft rock? Kind of an interesting proposition.

Jacob Smith wrote:As far as I know, there are literally zero cases of a crag declining in popularity because it is too popular.
lol you would be right - I'm digging the circular reasoning.
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
Jacob Smith wrote: As far as I know, there are literally zero cases of a crag declining in popularity because it is too popular.
"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." is one of my favorite Yogi Berra quotes.
Nate W · · San Jose, CA · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 20

Smith Rock in OR, Vantage in WA, and the aforementioned Indian Rock in Berkeley have extremely polished holds on some routes.

Both Smith and Vantage have such a huge amount of climbing that it frankly seems unlikely that the entire areas will become like that, at least in my lifetime, especially when you consider that inevitably climbing will lose some of its current hipness.

And this typically only happens on the easiest climbs and I wouldn't say they have been destroyed—just a bit greasy like some gym routes get. I'd also imagine they would reacquire texture if left unclimbed for some period of time.

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155

I'd agree that no climb will likely be made unclimbable, save for those that have critical holds break (or even the entire rock feature collapses), which is extremely rare relatively speaking. However, the quality of the routes will certainly degrade and they might get a little harder. A 4-star 12a now may be a 3-star 12b in ten years once everything is polished.

Rock degradation due to use is a far less severe problem than the general access issues that are climbing's worst enemy. Many crags are still on private land, and while owners may be OK with climbing now a large increase in the number of climbers may make them change their mind.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

This thread reminds me of one where a person asked about how to redress polished holds at a well used bouldering area (i.e. restore the texture). The person got lots of replies (many of them pretty environmentally unfriendly) until someone actually bothered to ask how hard the person actually climbed. When the person said it was only 5.7 or 5.8, all the helpful suggestions stopped. If you're new to the sport, or some aspect of it, you need to learn a little bit about it before you start with the big ideas of the sport's future.

JD Merritt · · Eugene, OR · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 2,637

the answer to the OPs question is slipperier than the footholds in rifle. I doubt we can glue together an answer.

Rwwon ru · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 35

Fat Dad - I climb Class 3, working on Class 4 ;) - obviously this means I have no ability to ask these kinds of questions. You caught me! and Yes, I am totally implying that we need to chip new hold, and/or glue new holds on these crags. You guys saw right through me, dang it!

Nate T.W. - that's an interesting statement. Have you heard of them reacquiring texture after being left unclimbed?

Ian - "A 4-star 12a now may be a 3-star 12b in ten years once everything is polished." Setting aside grade inflation, do you think that climb will ever be a 12a again? (this will probably open up a lot of tangential discussion)

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

I must have hit a nerve.

Nielsonru wrote: I wonder about some of the crags that have been climbed on so much that the rock becomes smooth, greasy, or even polished from so many ascents - to the point that people move onto newly discovered or developed crags."
OK, so elaborate. What crags are you aware of where this has occurred. Not ones that have gotten polished, but ones so polished people have abandoned them. That is the premise of your thread, right?
will smith · · boulder · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 35

Short answer NO examples Bastille crack 1st climbed 1954 has gotten slick as snot in places yet there is still a line every nice day of the year. How about Pinched Rib in JT originally 5.8 now 5.10 or so yet no one has glued the broken out holds back in. Some climbs get harder others easier, climb them if you want or not but leave them alone for future generations thank you.

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

A few years back while on a southern France climbing trip we wanted to go to Finale in Italy. Someone told us that the place is getting very polished and recommended a newly developed area called Oltre Finale. So we went there and had an amazing time on grippy limestone.

Rwwon ru · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 35
Fat Dad wrote:I must have hit a nerve?
And I got you to ask something other than my resume?

Would it make you mad if I added the bold text to the end of that quote

"I wonder about some of the crags that have been climbed on so much that the rock becomes smooth, greasy, or even polished from so many ascents - to the point that people move onto newly discovered or developed crags, do they exist?"

btw, I'm not implying that that they become abandoned %100, but that focus has shifted away from them due to their polished nature.

I can think of a couple routes in my town, but if you answer no affirmatively in the last question, is it worth sharing the specifics if your mind is already made up?
Rwwon ru · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 35
will smith wrote: but leave them alone for future generations thank you.
Future generations will never experience the climb in its original 5.8 form - in that sense the route is no longer sustainable if you think about it. Kind of makes you wonder if route development is being saved for future development in some areas because they want others to experience the route as a 5.8 before it turns into a 5.10
Jim Fox · · Westminster, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 50

I started climbing many years ago when rock climbing was still a rather obscure sport. I wish it had stayed that way but it has not.

A lot of posts I see on MP are about how the current popularity of the sport is ruining it but all of us that continue to climb are part of the problem.

BBQ · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 554

I wouldn't worry so much about the holds becoming too slick to climb. I would be much more concerned about bolts and anchors becoming too old and rusty to be trust worthy protection. Crags might go the way of dams if no one bothers to put the time and effort to "yank the mank" and replace, for example, old zinc bolts with stainless steel. Crags needs custodians if they are to remain safe and climbable. In some cases, old crags may need to have routes recleaned with hammers and crowbars to remove dangerous choss that an older developer missed or didn't notice because the choss didn't have a hollow or flaky feel to it. Weathering of rock over time might be part of the problem that leads to a crag becoming unclimbable.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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