Thanks for that sweet biner!!!

OutLaw wrote:You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves. I climb hard and I don't need my draws hung for me. I believe the term for climbing on already placed draws is called pink pointing. (why do you think its called pink? I don't know either, but I can guess) If I pink point something I recognize I did not actually climbed the climb in full. I don't look to climb easy, comfortable climbs, I push hard and work on my lead head, I take wipers and sometimes I hang, but I do not leave my draws on the walls. If you want to climb like you are in a gym, stay in the gym. What are people supposed to do if they want to climb in a pure style without all the draws hung because they can climb that hard or are working on climbing that hard. You walk up to the climb and someones stuff is all over it and there is no one around. Are they claiming that climb for themselves for the next few days? Honestly I feel like it is very inconsiderate to assume you can claim a climb as your own personal project and leave your crap all over it. Who do you think you are? I see so many people walk up the local crags I frequent and spend all day trying to get up a single climb. What is the point? How can you seriously say you can climb hard if you can only get up things after rehearsing all the moves being safe and sound. Seriously if thats what you think, stay in the gym and keep your ethics there too.

Another reason pre-hung draws is a poor practice is because they are very visible to non-climbers whereas hardly any non-climber is able to spot bolts on a wall. I personally think this has contributed to the removal of climbing access to several caves out west. If I was a non-climber and saw a bunch of garish colored nylon rags (non-climber's perception) hanging from a cliff in an otherwise unspoiled wilderness then I would take it upon myself to complain to the land managers.

This is silly. Prehung draws have been part of hard redpointing since the advent of sport climbing. It is simply part of the sport, as virtually every cutting edge sport route has been done with draws in place. Pinkpoint is a silly concept that was the product of anti-euro backlash in the early 90s, but I hardly see anyone cleaning their draws between each redpoint burn. If it becomes the standard to clean draws each time, why don't we pull off the bolt hangers as well...That would make a logical extension of such mentality.

A quick history lesson here. Redpoint comes from the word rotpunkt as early sport climbers in the Frankenjura would paint a red dot at the bottom of routes once they were sent (usually with prehung draws).

Taking someone's project draws is theft. Simple.

People arguing against draws being left are silly. There are already bolts there and anchors - somebody had already "left" stuff on the wall. If the thief of Ian's draw was such a good land steward they would've not left a leaver biner. The tradsters' "booty" mentality is puzzling - for some reason it's not ok to leave shiny draws on bolts, but it's ok to leave tat and rings all over the crags with easy walkoffs.

doligo wrote:People arguing against draws being left are silly. There are already bolts there and anchors - somebody had already "left" stuff on the wall. If the thief of Ian's draw was such a good land steward they would've not left a leaver biner. The tradsters' "booty" mentality is puzzling - for some reason it's not ok to leave shiny draws on bolts, but it's ok to leave tat and rings all over the crags with easy walkoffs.

Bolts and draws are not the same thing. Bolts are required to be there to protect the route. Draws are not, they are just laziness. Bolts can (and should) be camouflaged. Draws are typically bright colors and shiny, impossible to miss. Well camouflaged bolts are difficult to find if you are not looking for them.

And tat and rings on cliffs with easy walkoffs is not okay. Not sure where you came up with that.

The Shmuck - "This is silly. Prehung draws have been part of hard redpointing since the advent of sport climbing.

A quick history lesson here. Redpoint comes from the word rotpunkt as early sport climbers in the Frankenjura would paint a red dot at the bottom of routes once they were sent (usually with prehung draws). Taking someone's project draws is theft. Simple."

So your logic is people starting doing this a long time ago, so its okay? And they defiled the rock in other ways as well? Not sure that is what I would base my argument on. Please don't paint on the rock, weather someone in Europe started doing it a while ago or not.

Also, is there a grade where is is generally accepted that you can leave proj draws? If so, what is it? Is it okay if I leave draws on my 11a proj (i really want to send it!), what if a new climber is working on a 9+, is it okay for them to leave up draws? If not, why not? Do you earn the right to leave your shit out by climbing a harder grade?

Ian Cavanaugh wrote:This is a new route I put up in Castle Rock State Park.

This Castle Rocks?

"Castle Rocks was opened to the public in May of 2003. It is a great addition to climbing community while visiting the City of Rocks.The Castle Rocks area is open to new bolted routes through a Climbing Management Plan. There is currently a good relationship between climbers and the park staff. Please try and keep this good relationship going. There is a good mix of trad and sport routes. The fixed gear must conform to the standards of the climbing management plan.

CRSP is a result of cooperation between the state government and non-profit organizations, such as The Access Fund, The Conservation Fund, and Idaho State Parks. Climbing here should be considered fragile. Stick to designated trails, be respectful, and leave no trace. "

If so, it may be that someone from (or cooperating with) park management took them as they often also have a "no soft gear" policy on existing bolted routes.

OutLaw wrote:You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves. I climb hard and I don't need my draws hung for me. I believe the term for climbing on already placed draws is called pink pointing. (why do you think its called pink? I don't know either, but I can guess) If I pink point something I recognize I did not actually climbed the climb in full. I don't look to climb easy, comfortable climbs, I push hard and work on my lead head, I take wipers and sometimes I hang, but I do not leave my draws on the walls. If you want to climb like you are in a gym, stay in the gym. What are people supposed to do if they want to climb in a pure style without all the draws hung because they can climb that hard or are working on climbing that hard. You walk up to the climb and someones stuff is all over it and there is no one around. Are they claiming that climb for themselves for the next few days? Honestly I feel like it is very inconsiderate to assume you can claim a climb as your own personal project and leave your crap all over it. Who do you think you are? I see so many people walk up the local crags I frequent and spend all day trying to get up a single climb. What is the point? How can you seriously say you can climb hard if you can only get up things after rehearsing all the moves being safe and sound. Seriously if thats what you think, stay in the gym and keep your ethics there too.

Holy shit! My time machine worked! You'll think I'm crazy, but just a second ago I was in the year 2014 (no, the 2 in front wasn't a typo!) and now suddenly I'm in 1983!!! Next thing you know we'll be talking about whether or not chalk is aid.

Climbing in a pure style, without draws hung but the bolts are already in the wall...?

I also take wipers, it keeps the brown lines out of my shorts, I'm not sure what that has to do with climbing.

SDY, do not be dense...Nobody is advocating painting on rocks. I'm just illustrating that leaving draws on a project for a reasonable amount of time has always been part of sport climbing. If this offends you, do not go climbing at primarily sport areas. Granted, COR is not a sport area.

the schmuck wrote:SDY, do not be dense...Nobody is advocating painting on rocks. I'm just illustrating that leaving draws on a project for a reasonable amount of time has always been part of sport climbing. If this offends you, do not go climbing at primarily sport areas. Granted, COR is not a sport area.

I'm quite sure that a gear route with three bolts doesn't make it "sport."

If you leave 'draws on a route (project or not) for an extended period of time (ie more than 2 hours) don't expect them to be there when you return. There are a lot of climbers that consider them abandoned gear and treat it as such (ie booty). Bitch and whine on the Internet all you want; it's not going to change any opinions.

Do a search on MP for "stolen draws" and see how many get returned. It's laughable how many people post hoping their "stolen draws" get returned.

Reality. Embrace it or not. It's still there.

Does anybody ever still go out for a day of hard climbing and, kind of, sort of, leave no trace?

Marc H wrote: Do a search on MP for "stolen draws" and see how many get returned. It's laughable how many people post hoping their "stolen draws" get returned. Reality. Embrace it or not. It's still there.

I'll bet the vast majority of fixed draws are left in peace.
There are a very few climbing leprechauns who will steal anything not nailed down. Nothing except the threat of force will stop them.

There is a larger group of climbers who mislead themselves into thinking stealing is OK because they dislike fixed draws. I believe they should reconsider.

A legitimate argument against fixed draws can be made. I don't like them much myself, although in the interest of honesty, must confess that I use them if present and even have some project draws of my own hanging.

However, if you wish to protest against what you perceive as misuse of public space, there are morally upright ways to do it.
Ask/persuade the owner to pull them.
Pull them yourself and leave them hanging from the anchor.
Pull them yourself and leave them piled at the base.
Pull them yourself and leave them at the local climbing shop, or post up the "discovery of the lost gear" on MP and negotiate for a six pack.

But to take gear that you know doesn't belong to you, when you know the owner plans to return for it, then keep it for yourself, hard for me to see how that's not stealing.

Most climbers are decent folks. Even most climbers who have been bootying fixed draws are decent people. Decent people who should change their approach.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I'll bet the vast majority of fixed draws are left in peace. There are a very few climbing leprechauns who will steal anything not nailed down. Nothing except the threat of force will stop them. There is a larger group of climbers who mislead themselves into thinking stealing is OK because they dislike fixed draws. I believe they should reconsider. A legitimate argument against fixed draws can be made. I don't like them much myself, although in the interest of honesty, must confess that I use them if present and even have some project draws of my own hanging. However, if you wish to protest against what you perceive as misuse of public space, there are morally upright ways to do it. Ask/persuade the owner to pull them. Pull them yourself and leave them hanging from the anchor. Pull them yourself and leave them piled at the base. Pull them yourself and leave them at the local climbing shop, or post up the "discovery of the lost gear" on MP and negotiate for a six pack. But to take gear that you know doesn't belong to you, when you know the owner plans to return for it, then keep it for yourself, hard for me to see how that's not stealing. Most climbers are decent folks. Even most climbers who have been bootying fixed draws are decent people. Decent people who should change their approach.

Instead of going through all of this, how about, if you don't want your 'draws to disappear, don't leave them hanging on public property for days on end. Seems pretty simple to me.

OutLaw wrote:You leave your tent in a crowded camping spot then go to another crowded camp spot and set up another tent. After a few days you go back to the first camp spot and realize some one took your tent because you left it unattended for days, not allowing others the opportunity to use the location and making a mess because you are not there to monitor whats happening to your stuff. If you leave your draws on the wall I will take them. Call me a thief I don't care.

This analogy doesn't work at all. A tent occupying a spot keeps someone from using that campsite. Draws hanging on a route can be used by other parties. No harm, no foul. If it's a route you're going to climb, you're going to need draws on those bolts too. Use and leave 'em. Don't be a thief.
I can appreciate those that are arguing about draws being up for an extended period of time (many weeks to a month) in an area trafficked by non-climbers. But in an area that really only climbers go, climbers should know better than to steal someone's draws.

My guess is the one's who are opposed to fixed draws or project draws 1) don't sport climb 2) don't climb hard enough to appreciate draws hanging 3) don't bolt new routes or contribute anything productive to the climbing community.

Marc H wrote: Instead of going through all of this, how about, if you don't want your 'draws to disappear, don't leave them hanging on public property for days on end. Seems pretty simple to me.

Remind me to watch my stuff when you're around :-)

I leave fixed draws and carry a gun. Steal my draws. Deal with the heat.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Remind me to watch my stuff when you're around :-)

Remind this guy not to leave his stuff sitting out for days if there are humans within a 100 miles.

Y'all must have some crap climbing weather down there, there are some good rants here! Starting another bag of popcorn...

Man this has become exciting!! everyone is ready to rip each others heads off for their own personal beliefs...is this a climbing crusade? I know what i did is looked down upon by many, and thats ok. I climb for me. I wasn't mad that my draws were taken, but how they were. If I were to return and see that my draws were taken and nothing was left behind, I could conclude that the person at least climbed to the anchors, which would be rad and Id like to talk to them just to see what they thought about the route. But they didn't, they went up, took the draws and left their own shit gear behind. but is what it is and no really sweat of my chest.

Matt C. I didn't have to build anchor because i couldn't go any higher, I have put chains in at the top ( I'm sure someone will have something to say about that). the draws were left on the bolts for the simple reason, it makes it easier. as in my OP, biner is at the base of the climb. this wasn't a bail situation, it was a ill be back in a week to hopefully send and clean my gear.

And for all those that think I am just a simple gym rat with gumby gym ethics, this is an open invite to climb with me. I would personally treasure the opportunity to meet all of you and have you show me how to actually climb, what hard climbing mean ( I believe it starts at .12c ), what proper ethics are and most of all how to take "wipers".