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What is this world coming to - Part II

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711

Geez...what's it like in da club?

youtube.com/watch?v=5qm8PH4…

Hey, DK!

ben jammin · · Moab, UT · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 852

Wow, this got really good really fast without me noticing.

Douche move on bringing the mega group of noobs (which they had to of been to think "climbing" in a group of 12 would be fun). Also pretty re tard to head back there without a backup route.

Shoulda just started climbing and said fuck it.

Hate to say it but I'll have to side w the rados on this one just cuz I hate gangbangs more than I hate pretty lights.

Nick Votto · · CO, CT, IT · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 320

One of my favorite quotes ever on MP, I'm in the same boat and I haven't waited in line for 17 years.....
Tho I do hate when people gang bang routes haha

Dow Williams wrote:I would never venture into the Fishers or anywhere else that popular without multiple routes in mind...and I can assure you, you have never and will never catch me waiting in line to climb anything. Who wants to climb below or above anyone? I see it at Red Rock all the time, but simply don't get it unless folks maybe feel safer that way? Some of you might need to examine why you are into this hobby to begin with. Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. Buddha
Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
ben jammin wrote:cuz I hate gangbangs more than I hate pretty lights.
Well I've got a new motto.
Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118
Scott McMahon wrote: Well I've got a new motto.
If it were 7 years ago and we were on RC.com you would have pasted it into your signature. We don't have signatures on MP. Seriously, what IS this world coming to?
Joe Catellani · · Bellingham, WA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 196

this group (and all climbers) need to commit to the AAC pact

accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5K…

David B · · Denver, CO · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 205

he was installing glue-ins

glue-ins take 24 hours to cure

hence the two days

the 12 extra people are irrelevant. the alternative would be NO ONE climbing the route those two days.

did any of you read darren's whole post? you should be thanking him for upgrading a route as well as teaching a group of people good practices

christ

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

David - there's no time to read when people could be getting pissed off instead.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Joe Catellani wrote:this group (and all climbers) need to commit to the AAC pact
Oh, geez, not another club? Isn't the AAC just another front for illegal guiding?

Ha ha.

(Member since 1995)
Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
David Barbour wrote:he was installing glue-ins glue-ins take 24 hours to cure hence the two days the 12 extra people are irrelevant. the alternative would be NO ONE climbing the route those two days. did any of you read darren's whole post? you should be thanking him for upgrading a route as well as teaching a group of people good practices christ
I repeated the same thing many posts ago but it seemed to have been ignored by most people, too. As far as I can tell only Jeremy commented on the fact that Darren was installing glue-ins, and did so in a "who are you to rebolt it" manner.

Somebody got hurt climbing this route because the previous fixed gear failed. I'm not familiar with the route, but I get the impression that aiding up on that gear is common practice (or did I misread that?). That, to me, means it's probably something that SHOULD be done. Even the OP admitted that without one of the fixed pins he probably would have bailed.

As far as I can tell Darren was doing a good thing by replacing the gear and taking advantage of the opportunity to teach others how to do it correctly, too.

People just like bitching.
Andy Novak · · Bailey, CO · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 370
David Barbour wrote:he was installing glue-ins glue-ins take 24 hours to cure hence the two days the 12 extra people are irrelevant. the alternative would be NO ONE climbing the route those two days.
You don't know what you're talking about.

They were there 3 days, and only replaced a few bolts at belays that already had good gear. If the route should have been off limits for 24 hours, why were 12 people BACK ON THE ROUTE the next day? The 12 people are important, because if it were only 2 or 3 we could have worked around them and the anchor replacement. As it was, every pitch had 2 or 3 "climbers" jugging, making our ascent totally impossible. Like others have said, this was a quasi-guided party of beginners masquerading as an anchor replacement trip. What I saw at 7 am that morning was inconsiderate, dangerous and possibly illegal. Hopefully the leader(s) of the club will think twice next time before resorting to these tactics.
Matt Park · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 0

Dear Friends,

I am but a gentle hippy, and also happen to be employed by Darren Knezek at Mountainworks. That being said I will try to share my opinion in the most unbiased way possible to hopefully shed some light on this situation and relieve some tension from this post.

The internet is great. We can get up-to-date info on climbs, and post new climbs right away without having to wait years for a new guide book to come out. Unfortunately there seems to be something about the internet that makes everyone say things they would not normally say to someones face. I just read this entire thread, there were some very valid points mixed in among the stabs and name calling.

The most disturbing thing in my mind is that most of the fighting has been done by parties not involved, people standing up for other people and then getting called out for it. I realize that I am in the same boat since I was not there.

However, I do know that Clubmembers pay their yearly dues to a non-profit organization that is used to pay for the insurance for the club, (yes they have insurance) and to pay for bolts and bolting supplies that are used for things like this event, or to put up other towers and sport climbs around Utah.

It is a bummer that the climbing club does "gang bang" routes and areas when they have events. In fact I do not go to all of the events because I do not want to be a part of the mayhem. (and someone has to work the shop) But think back to when you started climbing. Who would not want an opportunity to learn different styles of climbing from an experienced climber and be able to sample sport, trad, aid, ice, mountaineering, etc. and see what you like.

Yes, there are noobs in the climbing club, and there are members who have been in it for 6 years running and are very experience well rounded climbers because of it. Everyone starts as a noob, whether you started with a buddy at the same level and learn together, or you have an experienced climber that can help show you the ropes, we were all noobs. Taking advantage of a club where you can be introduced to new climbing and mixed with experienced climbers and accelerate your learning, is an opportunity that I think anyone would have jumped on when they had just started.

There are good things and bad things about the club, its an amazing opportunity for people to learn how to climb. And its an unfortunate day when their event happens on the day you picked to do the same route, tower, mountain, etc.

There are issues that should be worked out, the sign should have be posted at the trail head on Friday. And research should be done to see if a non-profit club needs a permit to have a group in the Fishers.

But, lets be climbers and friends on the internet, and treat each other the way we would at the crag. Climbing is too much fun to get sidetracked by arguments on the internet.

Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
Matt Park wrote:Dear Friends, I am but a gentle hippy, and also happen to be employed by Darren Knezek at Mountainworks. That being said I will try to share my opinion in the most unbiased way possible to hopefully shed some light on this situation and relieve some tension from this post. The internet is great. We can get up-to-date info on climbs, and post new climbs right away without having to wait years for a new guide book to come out. Unfortunately there seems to be something about the internet that makes everyone say things they would not normally say to someones face. I just read this entire thread, there were some very valid points mixed in among the stabs and name calling. The most disturbing thing in my mind is that most of the fighting has been done by parties not involved, people standing up for other people and then getting called out for it. I realize that I am in the same boat since I was not there. However, I do know that Clubmembers pay their yearly dues to a non-profit organization that is used to pay for the insurance for the club, (yes they have insurance) and to pay for bolts and bolting supplies that are used for things like this event, or to put up other towers and sport climbs around Utah. It is a bummer that the climbing club does "gang bang" routes and areas when they have events. In fact I do not go to all of the events because I do not want to be a part of the mayhem. (and someone has to work the shop) But think back to when you started climbing. Who would not want an opportunity to learn different styles of climbing from an experienced climber and be able to sample sport, trad, aid, ice, mountaineering, etc. and see what you like. Yes, there are noobs in the climbing club, and there are members who have been in it for 6 years running and are very experience well rounded climbers because of it. Everyone starts as a noob, whether you started with a buddy at the same level and learn together, or you have an experienced climber that can help show you the ropes, we were all noobs. Taking advantage of a club where you can be introduced to new climbing and mixed with experienced climbers and accelerate your learning, is an opportunity that I think anyone would have jumped on when they had just started. There are good things and bad things about the club, its an amazing opportunity for people to learn how to climb. And its an unfortunate day when their event happens on the day you picked to do the same route, tower, mountain, etc. There are issues that should be worked out, the sign should have be posted at the trail head on Friday. And research should be done to see if a non-profit club needs a permit to have a group in the Fishers. But, lets be climbers and friends on the internet, and treat each other the way we would at the crag. Climbing is too much fun to get sidetracked by arguments on the internet.
+1 Agreed!
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

If club trips were treated with the reverence of nuclear missiles (nOObular missiles) then a lot fewer people would get butt-hurt. With great power comes great responsibility.



Think before you launch your nOObs.

I run a lot of club trips these days, I might add.
Andrew Gram · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,725

Large club trips are absolutely inappropriate on grade IV tower routes. Club trips are lame under the best of circumstances, but if they must happen they really need to be at crags with lots of routes. Even the idea of that many people stomping around the base area is pretty offputting - the desert is delicate and big groups just aren't a good idea out there. Teaching people to rebolt is great, but there are plenty of smaller crags with bad bolts that would be much more appropriate.

This really sounds like a form of pirate guiding - in the most forgiving light it is in a questionable grey area.

The idea that anyone thinks this route gets climbed infrequently is hard to swallow. During the spring and fall, it gets done at least every weekend and oftentimes more. It isn't unusual to see parties on every pitch of ancient art and a line at the base, 2+ parties on or waiting for this route, and parties on echo and the titan at the same time. Rebolting with glue-ins on a trade route like this is a very good idea, but it really needs to be done on a weekday or during the offseason.

Getting the BLM involved is a very bad idea - desert climbers do not need more exposure for our bad behavior. Better to police from within.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
Andrew Gram wrote:Getting the BLM involved is a very bad idea - desert climbers do not need more exposure for our bad behavior. Better to police from within.
Abosolutely DO NOT fucking bitch to the BLM, any of you.
Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

Too late. Thanks Nate Beckwith from Boulder!!

Brian C. · · Longmont, CO · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 1,100

Too bad there aren't any other towers worth climbing in the Fishers. Then all of this could have been avoided.

Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
NateB wrote: This is why commercial guiding on BLM land requires a permit. Large groups and frequent use by a few for profit unfairly strains camping and parking as well. I was inspired enough by the arrogance on display here to generate a PDF of this thread and send it to the Moab BLM office this AM. I hope they carry through. More-so, I'm glad nobody got hurt. Jugging can be complicated and dangerous. I have no idea how a few could properly supervise and ensure the safety of such a large group of noobs spread out all over that route.
Abosolutely DO NOT fucking bitch to the BLM, any of you.

Yup too late...
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

You're tooooo late!

Swiper

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern Utah Deserts
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