Thanks for that sweet biner!!!
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ton wrote: right, 'cuz the ethics of a hard climber can only be assessed by those equally hard. stop leaving gear on walls because you're "projecting". it's arrogant, lazy, self-centered BS.Granted it's all climbing, but you realize that you commenting on here is like me who doesn't boulder, going on a bouldering thread and giving them my $0.02? I don't climb that hard, but dabble in sport climbing and some route development. In both disciplines, it is acceptable to leave draws (or ropes on a new route). If you see draws on an established route, it's usually a fair game to climb it (but leave draws alone). If you see draws on a new route, you should stay clear - mainly for your safety sake, because who knows if the route has been finished. Most route developers are not sponsored climbers and don't do it for the FA sake only, they invest their own blood, sweat, time and money and are a far cry from being "arrogant, lazy, self-centered". I'd say leave a ticking bomb flake that would explode on thieves, but like I said most route developers are usually extremely thoughtful of other people's safety and would never think of such a thing. |
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Now now gentlemen, there is no need to start comparing the size of your racks! I left those draws for the benefit it offers, I knew full well of the risk I was taking. For those of you calling me out for climbing above my "grade", thank you soooooo much for keeping me humble and well within my 'sending' ability. for now on I will only climb 5.9 trad lines, I know I can send those, as long as a friend places all the cams for me! |
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Ian Cavanaugh wrote:In some circumstances, it can become extremely dangerous to no have draws hung.Sport climbs are now dangerous without pre-hung draws. Hilarious. |
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Marty, I didn't say all or even insinuate that. But if you have ever been on a route were clipping is the crux and if that were close to the ground or a ledge, then yes it can be dangerous. But I guess so can egos. |
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Nah, people are upset because they keep seeing wild and beautiful places turned into indoor gyms. |
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Ian Cavanaugh wrote:[...] can be dangerous. But I guess so can egos. Ian Cavanaugh wrote:let me know what your current project is and ill come warm up on it |
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One person, projecting one new route, with three fixed draws on the only three bolts of an otherwise naturally protected climb is not equal to an outdoor gym. |
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Also Ian Cavanaugh wrote:Climbing is more than anything a person pursuit.Maybe Lazer took your draws? |
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In 44 yrs of climbing I've had quite a bit of fixed gear stolen, almost entirely by non-climbers or newbie climbers. To the tiny minority of adult climbers who still come up with justifications for stealing, please get over yourselves. We are all in the same tribe. |
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You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves. I climb hard and I don't need my draws hung for me. I believe the term for climbing on already placed draws is called pink pointing. (why do you think its called pink? I don't know either, but I can guess) If I pink point something I recognize I did not actually climbed the climb in full. I don't look to climb easy, comfortable climbs, I push hard and work on my lead head, I take wipers and sometimes I hang, but I do not leave my draws on the walls. If you want to climb like you are in a gym, stay in the gym. |
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All hail the Decadent Wall! May The Flesh for Fantasy lead to Bestiality. . . Wait . . what? That is to say is it okay to have sex with me if I'm waring skimpy clothes! |
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This debate has been discussed so much, and yes it all comes down to personal ethics, self-imposed rules, and ethos. The problem in my opinion, as Outlaw has brought up, is that sometimes people feel that their rules give them the perspective to be rude, uncool, and uncompassionate to other people enjoying the same craft. Outlaw made his point clear... pinkpointing is not cool, and neither is leaving your things in public lands. Good for him! |
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OutLaw wrote:You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves. I climb hard and I don't need my draws hung for me. I believe the term for climbing on already placed draws is called pink pointing. (why do you think its called pink? I don't know either, but I can guess) If I pink point something I recognize I did not actually climbed the climb in full. I don't look to climb easy, comfortable climbs, I push hard and work on my lead head, I take wipers and sometimes I hang, but I do not leave my draws on the walls. If you want to climb like you are in a gym, stay in the gym. What are people supposed to do if they want to climb in a pure style without all the draws hung because they can climb that hard or are working on climbing that hard. You walk up to the climb and someones stuff is all over it and there is no one around. Are they claiming that climb for themselves for the next few days? Honestly I feel like it is very inconsiderate to assume you can claim a climb as your own personal project and leave your crap all over it. Who do you think you are? I see so many people walk up the local crags I frequent and spend all day trying to get up a single climb. What is the point? How can you seriously say you can climb hard if you can only get up things after rehearsing all the moves being safe and sound. Seriously if thats what you think, stay in the gym and keep your ethics there too.I don't find much value in arguing with folks who use their "ethics" to justify stealing. |
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That's a great point Mark! |
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OutLaw wrote:You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves.If someone leaves their laptop on a park bench, and I come take it, I am a thief. There are complicated rules in the case of abandoned things, but nice draws have not been abandoned. |
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You leave your tent in a crowded camping spot then go to another crowded camp spot and set up another tent. After a few days you go back to the first camp spot and realize some one took your tent because you left it unattended for days, not allowing others the opportunity to use the location and making a mess because you are not there to monitor whats happening to your stuff. |
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It is not about abandoning them it is the fact you are doing something like double parking. It is arrogant to think you can spread your crap all over the place and have no consideration for others use. Why cant you take the draws down and then put them back up next time? Is it to hard for you to climb? Just cause you cant do it why do you think someone else wants your pre-hung draws up on the route? |
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Ian, |
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Mark E Dixon wrote: I don't find much value in arguing with folks who use their "ethics" to justify stealing.Perhaps they don't find much value in arguing with those that use their "ethics" to justify littering and vilifying those that clean it up. |
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I have never taken project draws and I never will.. however, I do think it is a very silly part of our sport. I hate taking new climbers out for the first time and seeing project draws hanging. It sounds so lame when you try to explain it. |