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Thanks for that sweet biner!!!

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
ton wrote: right, 'cuz the ethics of a hard climber can only be assessed by those equally hard. stop leaving gear on walls because you're "projecting". it's arrogant, lazy, self-centered BS.
Granted it's all climbing, but you realize that you commenting on here is like me who doesn't boulder, going on a bouldering thread and giving them my $0.02?

I don't climb that hard, but dabble in sport climbing and some route development. In both disciplines, it is acceptable to leave draws (or ropes on a new route). If you see draws on an established route, it's usually a fair game to climb it (but leave draws alone). If you see draws on a new route, you should stay clear - mainly for your safety sake, because who knows if the route has been finished.

Most route developers are not sponsored climbers and don't do it for the FA sake only, they invest their own blood, sweat, time and money and are a far cry from being "arrogant, lazy, self-centered". I'd say leave a ticking bomb flake that would explode on thieves, but like I said most route developers are usually extremely thoughtful of other people's safety and would never think of such a thing.
Ian Cavanaugh · · Ketchum, ID · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 620

Now now gentlemen, there is no need to start comparing the size of your racks! I left those draws for the benefit it offers, I knew full well of the risk I was taking. For those of you calling me out for climbing above my "grade", thank you soooooo much for keeping me humble and well within my 'sending' ability. for now on I will only climb 5.9 trad lines, I know I can send those, as long as a friend places all the cams for me!

If you really think that hanging draws means that you are climbing above your ability, I take it you believe that every 5.15 was far above the ability of those that have sent those routes. Or maybe you just think its ok to only rag on those not in the media or putting up such extreme grades. Or better yet, you are only commenting on this because you feel like your own climbing level is incredible unremarkable.

I find it extremely hilarious how opposed people are to having draws left on a project. Climbing is more than anything a person pursuit. We go out climbing because we enjoy the challenges that it offers. Outlaw, you are right, these are OUR walls which gives me the right to leave my draws where ever i would like. Now if it was actually YOUR wall, well then I would politely ask if it were ok to leave them for another day. The good news is, i don't believe you own any walls, so looks like your opinion doesn't matter to me.

Ton, there is no limit as to what grade you can leave draws on. the only issue with that is the more moderate the grade the more likely those draws will be taken as there are going to be more people able to climb at that grade. In some circumstances, it can become extremely dangerous to no have draws hung. If a hanger is out of reach or the clipping stance higher is very insecure, being so full of pride that you 'must' hang your own draws becomes just as arrogant as leaving draws hanging.

So in conclusion, i guess the saying is true, Haters ganna Hate!! And for those of you that are calling me arrogant, let me know what your current project is and ill come warm up on it and hang my own draws. If its a gear line even better!

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20
Ian Cavanaugh wrote:In some circumstances, it can become extremely dangerous to no have draws hung.
Sport climbs are now dangerous without pre-hung draws. Hilarious.
Ian Cavanaugh · · Ketchum, ID · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 620

Marty, I didn't say all or even insinuate that. But if you have ever been on a route were clipping is the crux and if that were close to the ground or a ledge, then yes it can be dangerous. But I guess so can egos.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

Nah, people are upset because they keep seeing wild and beautiful places turned into indoor gyms.

MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66
Ian Cavanaugh wrote:[...] can be dangerous. But I guess so can egos.
Ian Cavanaugh wrote:let me know what your current project is and ill come warm up on it
Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

One person, projecting one new route, with three fixed draws on the only three bolts of an otherwise naturally protected climb is not equal to an outdoor gym.

I'll bet if any of you - even the guy who stole his draws - met Ian while he was out there working on the project, you would probably stop and watch for a bit. Maybe chat a bit. Maybe feel inspired or psyched for him. Who knows. Here's one guy getting after it and that's awesome.

Instead, you have reduced him to a non-human who is just a presence on the internet and somehow have scapegoated his three draws for everything that frustrates you. It's sad really. But fortunately Ian will move forward and leave you all in his wake. When he's done he will take his draws with him and you will walk right by his rad new climb on the way to the 5.9's you intend to repeat. 5.9's that were probably put up by people that had a lot more in common with Ian than they ever will with you.

MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66

Also

Ian Cavanaugh wrote:Climbing is more than anything a person pursuit.
Maybe Lazer took your draws?
Dave Bingham · · Hailey, ID · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 72

In 44 yrs of climbing I've had quite a bit of fixed gear stolen, almost entirely by non-climbers or newbie climbers. To the tiny minority of adult climbers who still come up with justifications for stealing, please get over yourselves. We are all in the same tribe.

OutLaw · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 0

You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves. I climb hard and I don't need my draws hung for me. I believe the term for climbing on already placed draws is called pink pointing. (why do you think its called pink? I don't know either, but I can guess) If I pink point something I recognize I did not actually climbed the climb in full. I don't look to climb easy, comfortable climbs, I push hard and work on my lead head, I take wipers and sometimes I hang, but I do not leave my draws on the walls. If you want to climb like you are in a gym, stay in the gym.

What are people supposed to do if they want to climb in a pure style without all the draws hung because they can climb that hard or are working on climbing that hard. You walk up to the climb and someones stuff is all over it and there is no one around. Are they claiming that climb for themselves for the next few days? Honestly I feel like it is very inconsiderate to assume you can claim a climb as your own personal project and leave your crap all over it. Who do you think you are?

I see so many people walk up the local crags I frequent and spend all day trying to get up a single climb. What is the point? How can you seriously say you can climb hard if you can only get up things after rehearsing all the moves being safe and sound. Seriously if thats what you think, stay in the gym and keep your ethics there too.

Ty Gregory · · Salt Lake City · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 115

All hail the Decadent Wall! May The Flesh for Fantasy lead to Bestiality. . . Wait . . what? That is to say is it okay to have sex with me if I'm waring skimpy clothes!
The answer is No means no and yes means maybe, and I mean maybe if I'm waring assless chaps, its just my Estrogen Imbalance. Wait, was that sexist?

Paul Trendler · · Bend, Oregon · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 111

This debate has been discussed so much, and yes it all comes down to personal ethics, self-imposed rules, and ethos. The problem in my opinion, as Outlaw has brought up, is that sometimes people feel that their rules give them the perspective to be rude, uncool, and uncompassionate to other people enjoying the same craft. Outlaw made his point clear... pinkpointing is not cool, and neither is leaving your things in public lands. Good for him!

We all make our own rules in the climbing craft, and I would wager that imposing our personal rules on others is merely a suggestion unless there is a imminent safety hazard. Being an uptstander is not about taking gear to send an indirect message, it's about a conversation. We've all got strong beliefs and rules about the way things should go... I for one feel that it is VITAL to make sure I get my burrito in to fuel up for a big climbing day, but I won't degrade or chastise someone else who went for a sendwich that day.

If you are disgusted by a draw that isn't yours already on a route, there are several "high road" options. You can clip under it with your own gear. You can scoff that pre-hung draw and run that stuff out like a boss! For extra points, you could even take it off, and hang it on your harness to keep it out of the way while you crush. Now that is way cooler than pinkpointing. But removing someone else's gear, and deciding it's cool to take it with you? Thats when the gray area of being a good person really becomes black and white in my opinion.

Here's a comparison:
After a great hike I get to a base camp or campground... someone else has pitched a tent and is not in their site. I'm going to take that tent, but maybe leave my blue tarp... it's got some holes in it too. Am I a steward, or a jerk? I guess whatever it takes to say I climb hard :)

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974
OutLaw wrote:You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves. I climb hard and I don't need my draws hung for me. I believe the term for climbing on already placed draws is called pink pointing. (why do you think its called pink? I don't know either, but I can guess) If I pink point something I recognize I did not actually climbed the climb in full. I don't look to climb easy, comfortable climbs, I push hard and work on my lead head, I take wipers and sometimes I hang, but I do not leave my draws on the walls. If you want to climb like you are in a gym, stay in the gym. What are people supposed to do if they want to climb in a pure style without all the draws hung because they can climb that hard or are working on climbing that hard. You walk up to the climb and someones stuff is all over it and there is no one around. Are they claiming that climb for themselves for the next few days? Honestly I feel like it is very inconsiderate to assume you can claim a climb as your own personal project and leave your crap all over it. Who do you think you are? I see so many people walk up the local crags I frequent and spend all day trying to get up a single climb. What is the point? How can you seriously say you can climb hard if you can only get up things after rehearsing all the moves being safe and sound. Seriously if thats what you think, stay in the gym and keep your ethics there too.
I don't find much value in arguing with folks who use their "ethics" to justify stealing.
Paul Trendler · · Bend, Oregon · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 111

That's a great point Mark!

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
OutLaw wrote:You are wrong Ian you do not have the right to leave your stuff in public places where-ever you want. If you do people will take them and you have no reason to claim the folks that cleaned up after you are thieves.
If someone leaves their laptop on a park bench, and I come take it, I am a thief.

There are complicated rules in the case of abandoned things, but nice draws have not been abandoned.
OutLaw · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 0

You leave your tent in a crowded camping spot then go to another crowded camp spot and set up another tent. After a few days you go back to the first camp spot and realize some one took your tent because you left it unattended for days, not allowing others the opportunity to use the location and making a mess because you are not there to monitor whats happening to your stuff.

If you leave your draws on the wall I will take them. Call me a thief I don't care.

OutLaw · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 0

It is not about abandoning them it is the fact you are doing something like double parking. It is arrogant to think you can spread your crap all over the place and have no consideration for others use. Why cant you take the draws down and then put them back up next time? Is it to hard for you to climb? Just cause you cant do it why do you think someone else wants your pre-hung draws up on the route?

matt c. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 155

Ian,
Sucks you lost your stuff but I am a little confused why you expected it to be there when you came back.

You were on a 110 foot trad climb with 3 bolts. You got to a point where you could no longer go up so you left an anchor to get down safety. Been there, it sucks.
But why does this not fall under the booty clause of climbing? Ok, what if the crux had been gear protected and you decided to fix a shiney new alien at your high point? Would you expect that gear to be there next time you worked the route? Nope, it would probably be gone. Why do you expect a difference with your quick draws? Because it was clipped to bolts?

But maybe I am mischaracterizing the situation and that person was being a dick.

Also, by your same ethics, why did you take the bail biner? Could have been someones project biner...

SDY · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 10
Mark E Dixon wrote: I don't find much value in arguing with folks who use their "ethics" to justify stealing.
Perhaps they don't find much value in arguing with those that use their "ethics" to justify littering and vilifying those that clean it up.
SDY · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 10

I have never taken project draws and I never will.. however, I do think it is a very silly part of our sport. I hate taking new climbers out for the first time and seeing project draws hanging. It sounds so lame when you try to explain it.

"Its a hard route, somebody is working on it. They hang draws to make it easier, hanging draws on lead makes it harder. They don't take them down because they don't want to have to hang them next time they come out."

The response has been universally negative. Somehow, after being in the sport awhile some of us become indoctrinated that this is okay, and necessary. As long as you are (trying) to climb hard, you can leave your shit out and expect people not to take- because you are (trying) to climb hard.

If it seems lame to unindoctrinated climbers, i can only imagine what non-climbers think when they see them.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northern Utah & Idaho
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