GriGri for Trad - Anything to this Impact Force Thing?

Lets take money, weight, only single rope rappel, lazy, slow to pay out slack, etc out of the equation. Any reason from a safety/impact force perspective not to use a GriGri for trad leading? I have heard a lot of opinions, but any facts supported by real data?

Yes, it generates more force.

beal gear impact forces with belay device/rope

There is more info out there. The next question is, "Is the additional force great enough to matter?" For me, the answer is, "It depends." I am sure others will express their opinions.

It can matter but it's situationally dependent. Petzl has some good info on this HERE

They also have so good stuff on high fall factors and fixed belays HERE

Real World, most of the time a GriGri won't matter as things like rope drag will mitigate most of the "soft catch" an ATC would provide. HOWEVER, close to the belay with lower strength gear, yeah, you might consider the ATC over a GriGri.

For me, particularly given more recent info on how violent falls close to the belay can be (petzl vids) I'll opt for the GriGri UNLESS the gear is marginal.

I'll take the risk of increased force (and bring a couple Screamers) just due to the risk of knocking your belayer unconscious with rock fall.

Rare, I know, but I nailed my belayer on the head with a snapped hold (good sized flake, maybe 6" x 5" x 1-2" thick triangle-shaped hold), if she hadn't had a helmet on then she could easily have been knocked out (or even with a helmet if the hold had been bigger). New route, I'd pulled the same move the day before no problem, the second day it snapped (drilling a new route on granite ground-up with hand drills, not leaving fixed ropes).

Also I had a birds-eye view as a friend snapped a good sized flake off of pitch 4 of Eagle Dance, it fell, broke in two, and one half nailed his belayer in the belay hand. Luckily the belayer was an experienced guide and had grabbed the rope with both hands when he heard the "uhhhffff!" of the falling leader. If he hadn't grabbed the belay rope with his non-belay hand, he likely would have dropped the leader (the hand was lacerated and they thought broken, turned out no broken bones). He didn't have a helmet on and the rock missed his head by inches - that was the last time he ever considered any long route in Red Rocks "clean enough to not bring a helmet."

John Wilder wrote: If the gear is good- I dont think it matters. If the gear is marginal- well, it was marginal to begin with and theres no way of knowing for sure that a different belay device would have resulted in a different outcome. I belay exclusively with a grigri2 these days but if i'm out climbing, i always have the atc-guide with me anyway, so if i think the gear is that iffy, i'll belay with the guide. i'll also lower down from the belay to get more rope in the system and prevent a ff2. i've seen numbers and i'm much more concerned with being able to hold a factor 2 fall with a 9.2mm than i am with a piece seeing more impact force. i'm pretty sure i cant hold a ff2 with a 9.2mm on a tube device. so, if the gear might blow regardless, i'd prefer to have a device in my hand that can handle a high factor fall than one that might kill my partner. ymmv, of course.

On point as usual

In real life trad situations (rope drag, friction, wandering routes, rope running into cracks) a low impact rope will have as much if not more effect than a grigri vs ATC

Especially after the rope sees decent use and loses elasticity when it ages

I would be much more concerned about my rope than using a grigri

As the beal info shows, the more "real life" the climb becomes (drag, friction) the less effect the belay device has

;)

bearbreeder wrote:In real life trad situations (rope drag, friction, wandering routes, rope running into cracks) a low impact rope will have as much if not more effect than a grigri vs ATC Especially after the rope sees decent use and loses elasticity when it ages I would be much more concerned about my rope than using a grigri As the beal info shows, the more "real life" the climb becomes (drag, friction) the less effect the belay device has ;)

What are you using these days? I used to use the Beals but durability made me look elsewhere. I shoot for 8kN impact forces or less if possible. Edelweiss is my current workhorse at 8.1kN

mattm wrote: What are you using these days? I used to use the Beals but durability made me look elsewhere. I shoot for 8kN impact forces or less if possible. Edelweiss is my current workhorse at 8.1kN

Tendon and beals mostly

I find 10mm tendons to be pretty durable, cheap and have around 8 kN impact force

I buy my cragging ropes for ~80 dollahs

Personally i find it quite odd if someone talks about not using a grigri for trad if they are also using a harder catching rope like a maxim

Especially moderate trad which wanders and has a lot of drag due to the lower angle ... If you catch falls on those type of climbs youll notice that you may not even feel the catch very much once the person is high enough due to rope drag and stretch (which is a bigger factor on forces on the top runner at that point)

;)

Usually not a concern to me except where there is nothing but tiny pro for the first 20-30 feet.

Ammon and Flyin Brian were making an effort to free the Dunn route on Angels Landing a while back (2003?) when Brian dislodged a "refrigerator-sized" block that knocked Ammon out cold. Had he not been belayed with a gri-gri the fall could have been a lot longer.

I had the pleasure of being in Zion and hanging in camp with their crew at the time and got all the details from Ammon and Brian themselves...pretty wild story about hiding in the bushes afterwards to avoid an ambulance ride due to not having insurance at the time...