figure 8 v ATC

It's best to be familiar with multiple belay options and not to be fixated on one alone. Depending upon the situation one needs to be able to transfer effortlessly from one technique/ device to another. Certainly the figure 8 affords the smoothest rappel and is an acceptable belay device. A figure 8 will always be part of my armament for alpine days because of its versatility and simplicity. With all devices, one needs to fully understand it's limitations however.

Rick Blair wrote:I keep a figure 8 around only for long rappels so I don't get bounced around, but since it is not usually on my rack, when I do a climb with a long rappel, I usually forget to bring it anyway.

Are you referring to the atc coming in contact with the biner? Have you ever tried the omega sbgII? I swear by this thing now. Smoothest device I have ever used. The clip in point makes it never bounce or jam. Works awesome on skinnys also.

Nick Y. wrote:I learned to climb years ago on a figure 8 and have never felt the need to switch to an ATC. I currently use a Black Diamond Super 8. That being said, they aren't for everyone. To add some clarity to a couple of statements made above: -Rappelling on a figure 8 is ridiculously smooth. It will NOT kink your ropes, at all, if you feed it as shown in the BD instructions linked below (such that your hand is out in front of the device). If you reverse the feed and the brake-hand side of the rope comes out toward you, you will get an epic rat's nest of a rope to deal with. -Figure 8's dissipate heat from a rappel extremely well, too, due to a large surface area. -The figure 8, and again BD super 8 in particular are a fantastic belay device IF USED PROPERLY. It is not "best" to feed the rope through the small hole - that is the ONLY way to use it as a belay device as specifically shown in the instructions. Used correctly it actually gets enough friction that it can be difficult to release after catching a fall. -The cross-loading risk is VERY real. If you do not maintain tension in your set-up during the rappel, you must be cognizant of this. I cross-loaded mine on the first rappel of a 3-pitch climb and my heart stopped when I noticed it 20 feet in. I was very lucky and was able to get my feet planted, get some slack, and correct the configuration. blackdiamondequipment.com/u… I have no experience caving or dealing with muddy/icy ropes, so I can't comment on those. I have used one to rappel in a downpour (got caught on the wall) and it worked just fine. Bottom line, use what you have been trained to use and are comfortable with; this goes double for belaying since you're responsible for someone else.

Like most everyone here - I learned to rap on a Fig 8 in the 80's. ATC's of course were not yet invented. I liked the Fig 8 for obvious reasons listed above. I feel the ATC does a great job rapping - but it heats up quite a lot of long raps versus the Fig 8 that I think dissipates heat better being larger with more metal/surface area.
I have belayed with them using the small hole - and as stated by others - this doesn't work very well w/o either place a biner thru the large hole to your harness so it doesn't 'get away from you' or a 'keeper cord' on it attached to your harness as well (or I suppose a quick draw would work from the large hole to your harness as well to keep it from going off down the rope out of reach!

I have heard that the Fig 8 twists the rope badly and will kink it - I can't say I have even done any real 'testing' on this to verify the validity of that statement. I used to be a caver - and I would say the Fig 8 would make 'change overs' from jummaring to rapping mush easier and faster with the Fig 8 then the ATC. What I don't like about the ATC is it can be a PITA to get a fat rope thru the holes, esp if ice climbing and the rope is stiff, freezing up, etc.

That being said - I personally prefer the Fig 8 for rapping myself.
Guess I am just a 'dyed in the wool' old school climber!

Rick Blair wrote: That is what I have heard, use the small loop like a stitch plate, I have never tried it. Anyone?

anyone?.... that must have been a LONG time ago!

Steve

Sure, superceded by the Sticht plate almost straight away though since we were using half-ropes.

Anyone know how well an '8' works on a double line rappel ? I don't use one or know how to use one so I'm just curious and always willing to learn/be corrected !! :-)

Gaz wrote:Anyone know how well an '8' works on a double line rappel ? I don't use one or know how to use one so I'm just curious and always willing to learn/be corrected !! :-)

they work great. You can always add another wrap to increase friction for smaller ropes. back in the day, it was typically in your first purchase of gear.

ATC is still my go to for rappelling and belaying. they weight almost nothing. I dont climb anything very hard at all though and not catching giant falls.

I would submit that the "most people dont use them anymore" (If that could be backed up empirically) goes hand in hand with american desire to have something 'foolproof'. Which I see reflected in a lot of other aspects of climbing these days...and is also something completely at odds with climbing.

Tony A. Davis wrote:The 8 will also put the twisty kinky in your rope.

+1 +1 +1

Kinky's good just not on one's own rope. Hmmmm. Let me think that one over ;-)

So basically the '8' will twist your rope whereas the ATC is a linear feed through so it leaves the rope alone/untwisted ?

BTW, I bought an ATS out of curiosity. It seems to be a great device except the things I don't particularly like are:

1) it needs 2 biners if used as a 'tube' device
2) the plate itself wears down when used as an '8'

It seems to me that an ATC is more durable and works in most situations. However I gather Cavers and Canyoneerers love the ATS. Maybe because they have every option in 1 device ?

I think the autolocking for jugging a rope can also be achieved with an ATC (ie weighted rope goes in bottom side of ATC). If you look at the ATS videos on youtube it's a sell point (3:1 pulley with a prussik/biner as pulley 'ie a 'Z' pulley).

For rope rescue there's a few things we use for belay/lowering.
Petzl ID
540
Bar and rack
MPD
I've heard of the figure 8 being used though up here its generally the ones above. Everyone seems to be moving to an MPD these days as its much easier to convert from a lowering to a haul line (rigging in our Z rig) as we don't have to switch out the MPD for a pulley.

Departments are slowly switching to the MPD for that reason, though the transition takes time as they are an expensive piece of equipment to justify.

My background is with urban search and rescue and fire rescue through high angle and low slope rescue training as well as confined space rescue training.

I use and like the figure 8, its particularly good (as mentioned above) for long rappels because it dissapates heat well. Its also useful because its easier to pass a knot with than on a ATC or grigri. I wouldn't use a standard figure 8 though, I only use the figure 8 with ears as getting jammed up is a pain in the arse.

I STILL BELEIVE THAT THE FIGURE 8 IS THE MOST USEFUL AND DIVERSE TOOL FOR RAPPELLING. MOST PEOPLE, EVEN THE SO CALLED EXPERTS, HAVE NO CLUE AS TO THE FULL RANGE OF USE OF THE FIGURE 8, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 7 DIFFERENT WAYS TO RIG A FIGURE 8 FOR RAPPELLING PURPOSES. I OWN EVERY THING, FROM PLATES TO TUBES, FROM RACKS SELF LOCKERS, AND HAVE NEVER FOUND ANY THING THAT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE 8.

The major advantage that I think only one person has mentioned is the Figure 8 can be LOCKED OFF on rappel which the ATC cannot...

McMatt wrote: MPD

$700 grigri with a pully??

Morgan Patterson wrote: $700 grigri with a pully??

To be fair it does make transitioning from a lower to a raise much quicker and smoother, and is a much smoother lower than a petzl ID for the most part.

That being said you pretty much just echoed my feelings on the issue. I also like being able to see every part of the system a la a bar and rack or figure 8, that way its quick and easy to tell if its been set up wrong. We had a guy rig in the petzl ID backwards on a course I did recently and it wasn't spotted until our man was over the edge and half way down.

I don't think the figure 8 caught on in the US as much as it did overseas because we were all quite satisfied with the carabiner brake method and the 8 was an extra piece of gear to carry. Mostly people carried the figure 8's for rappelling in mountaineering situations in which cold, storms, and gloves made it more likely that one would screw up or at least drop carabiners using the carabiner brake method.

I almost never saw them used for belaying, and for good reason: they are (or were) at the bottom of the heap in terms of force multiplication. Sure you got a soft catch on a moderate load sport-climbing fall, but the potential for loss of control on a big fall made them unsuitable for any kind of trad where big falls were possible---at least that was the US view at the time.

The rescue eights have all kinds of protruding things to increase friction and/or tie off the device. I have one of these and use it successfully for very occasional single-strand rappels on 8.5mm half ropes. It supplies plenty of friction and is very convenient to tie off, but wouldn't be any good for belaying, precisely because of the friction involved. It seems that the only way to get good feeding properties from an 8 is to build in low force multiplier, so I wonder whether even the modern iterations are suitable for general belaying.

8´s in general are suprisingly effective, all the tests show results roughly comparable to an ATC, the more "square" versions are more powerful than the classic form.
The interesting thing is that the loss of performance with thinner ropes isn´t as much as with conventional plates, back in the day with 11mm ropes the Stitcht plate was noticeably better than the older 8´s but with modern thinner ropes you wouldn´t really be able to tell any difference. They are certainly up with most modern devices in low friction mode.
They are also give more consistent results with wet (and reportedly icy)ropes than most modern devices.
And twist the ropes rapping!

rappel mode

rescue mode

sport mode

sport mode with extra wrap

aperture mode

munter hitch mode

crossed carabiner mode

Trey M wrote:Is there any benefit to using a figure 8 as opposed to tubular belay devices or a locking assist belay device? Thanks

You can get it on and off a stiff rope that has been buried in the snow for a week without taking your gloves off and losing your fingers.

David Coley wrote: You can get it on and off a stiff rope that has been buried in the snow for a week without taking your gloves off and losing your fingers.

And you might actually be able to go downwards as well:-)

Where they are neat is as a rigging plate for top-roping as well without having to worry about all that opposed lockers stuff. The only reason I´ve used one for the last 30 years I´d guess.