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What is this world coming to - Part II

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486
Leif E wrote: Nice, but not legally required.
I never said it was illegal not to, but situations like this are mentioned in the AF's list of best practices.

http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5726D5-6646-4050-AA6E-C275DF6CA8E3%7D/CM-web.pdf

A variety of ideas have been proposed to help mitigate these problems,
including the creation of new parking areas and access
points, developing educational and interpretive programs
on climbing to benefit all park visitors, the creation of
a climbing route reservation system (via e-mail or web
site postings), or erecting sign-in stations at trailheads
to popular climbs (Steelhammer 2000). Through the use
of information and education, climbing group leaders
should be encouraged to follow the guidelines listed
below to mitigate potential problems associated with
climbing groups, while providing a quality climbing
experience for their clientele.

....

Group leaders should consider a variety of factors
before traveling to climbing sites:
•Is the group a manageable size?
•Is there adequate staff to manage safety effectively?
•Can overcrowding be reduced through closer
communication and scheduling with other climbing
groups?

•Timing visits—Avoid popular climbing areas during
periods of high demand, for example weekends and
holidays.
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
Christian wrote: I never said it was illegal not to, but situations like this are mentioned in the AF's list of best practices.
Best practices, not requirements.
Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Austin Baird wrote:I think it was pretty obvious that there was no guiding here.
I think you're in the minority here.

Austin wrote:You just pulled the equivalent of running off to tattle-tale to mommy and daddy, based on a pretty weak interpretation of "guiding". Even if I knew nothing about DK or the situation, I'd tell you that scampering off to the BLM is a pretty shitty thing to do.
I think Nate's concerns are pretty valid.

NateB wrote:This is why commercial guiding on BLM land requires a permit. Large groups and frequent use by a few for profit unfairly strains camping and parking as well.
NateB wrote: I'm glad nobody got hurt. Jugging can be complicated and dangerous. I have no idea how a few could properly supervise and ensure the safety of such a large group of noobs spread out all over that route.
If Darren isn't doing anything wrong, then he has nothing to worry about. Pointing out a potentially illegal situation that could negatiely affect a lot of climbers is usually a good thing IMO.
portercassidy · · UT/CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 66

Organized groups do require a BLM permit. Especially clubs. Especially clubs that advertise meet ups on the internet.

runout · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 30

Is this really turning into a CO vs UT thing? Seriously?

Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367

who said they were noobs? I know one of the guys that went on this trip, if a guy that has been climbing 5 years, sports climbs harder than most of us, trad climbs 5.12, and has climbed multiple towers is a noob, then we're all a bunch of noobs.

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Austin Baird wrote:I think it was pretty obvious that there was no guiding here.
I think you're in the minority here.

Austin B wrote:You just pulled the equivalent of running off to tattle-tale to mommy and daddy, based on a pretty weak interpretation of "guiding". Even if I knew nothing about DK or the situation, I'd tell you that scampering off to the BLM is a pretty shitty thing to do.
I think Nate's concerns are pretty valid.

NateB wrote:This is why commercial guiding on BLM land requires a permit. Large groups and frequent use by a few for profit unfairly strains camping and parking as well.
NateB wrote: I'm glad nobody got hurt. Jugging can be complicated and dangerous. I have no idea how a few could properly supervise and ensure the safety of such a large group of noobs spread out all over that route.
If Darren isn't doing anything wrong, then he has nothing to worry about. Pointing out a potentially illegal situation that could negatively affect a lot of climbers is usually a good thing IMO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Leif E wrote:Best practices, not requirements.
C'mom, Christian, there's absolutely no place to discuss common courtesy or generally accepted practices in this thread! Legalities and legalities only!
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
Darren Knezek wrote:What is the World coming to with misleading posts. Here is why I invited good climbing friends to the Fisher Towers:
portercassidy wrote:Organized groups do require a BLM permit. Especially clubs. Especially clubs that advertise meet ups on the internet.
who said this was a part of the club? are you saying that anytime a guy that works for a club gets together with friends to go on an adventure is performing a commercial expedition because he works for a club? That's just ridiculous.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486
Marc H wrote: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ C'mom, Christian, there's absolutely no place to discuss common courtesy or generally accepted practices in this thread! Legalities and legalities only!
Lol!

And ironically, if we don't self-police on some of these things, it might turn into a legality, and probably not in the way that Leif imagines.
Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Leif E wrote: who said this was a part of the club? are you saying that anytime a guy that works for a club gets together with friends to go on an adventure is performing a commercial expedition because he works for a club? That's just ridiculous.
I really shouldn't be arguing with you considering you're struggling with some pretty basic concepts here, but I'll give it one more shot:

Darren wrote:I told anyone in the Utah Climbing Club who had each lead an entire A2 tower the month previous could come lead some of the pitches while being on a micro tracxion to the fixed line required for the glue- ins.
Darren's Utah Climbing Club wrote:UCC takes trips once a month to new & exciting climbing destinations, with additional helpful clinics to build skills.
UCC wrote:Everyone pays a one time donation of $300.
Only people in the UCC were invited. Those people had to make a "donation" of a monetary sum.

For someone who's so concerned about the legalities instead of generally accepted practices, I would think this is right up your alley. But you still struggle. Do you have an allegiance or friendship with Darren? Or is there something more fundamentally wrong with your lack of understanding...
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
Marc H wrote: I really shouldn't be arguing with you considering you are struggling with some pretty basic concepts here, but I'll give it one more shot: UCC takes trips once a month to new & exciting climbing destinations, with additional helpful clinics to build skills. Only people in the UCC were invited. Those people had to make a donation of a monetary sum. For someone who's so concerned about the legalities instead of generally accepted practices, I would think this is right up your alley. But you still struggle. Do you have an allegiance or friendship with Darren? Or is there something more fundamentally wrong with your lack of understanding...
thanks for the personal attach... it was fun to read this and realize that my trolling was getting trolled... I personally just think that complaining online about something that is going to happen in many different walks of life is ridiculous. I also think that people should just try to be understanding and not rude, eg. reporting someone to the BLM because they were performing a service is just rude.
Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Leif E wrote:it was fun to read this and realize that my trolling was getting trolled.
You'd get more respect from people if you just admit when you made a mistake instead of pretending to troll. I'll leave you alone now.

Climb safe.
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367
Marc H wrote: You'd get more respect from people if you just admit when you made a mistake instead of pretending to troll. I'll leave you alone now. Climb safe.
made a mistake? Get respect from people online? pretending to troll? how does one pretend to troll? wouldn't pretending to troll and trolling both be just considered trolling?
Leify Guy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 367

Only people in the UCC were invited. Those people had to make a "donation" of a monetary sum. quote>

also he never said that only people from the club were invited, but he did say that people in the club were invited... so if I invite coworkers to help me pull weeds with me and some friends for an elderly neighbor I'm now commercially landscaping?

David A · · Gardnerville, NV · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 405

Man, the Fisher's don't deserve this negative attention. OP just let it go!

Dr. Crushenstein · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 37

It's a shame that the real issue here that needs to be discussed was not initially brought up and once brought up it was overshadowed by insults and emotion.

It's pretty clear in my opinion that this is a form of pirate guiding. That issue has the possibility of having a greater impact on our climbing areas and access to them then the replacement of a few bolts and a foiled weekend. A discussion needs to begin on how we are to protect clients, guides and access while at the same time not restricting the guiding profession to the select group with the time and money for the required certifications and permits.

I unfortunately have just enough knowledge on the subject to know that I am not qualified to lead such a discussion but enough to know that something needs to be done. I would very much like to see a new thread made on this subject since starting it here would be futile. Hopefully a logical discussion will ensue for a few pages before the inevitable downward spiral.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

I think the issue of maintaining the bolt ladders on these Fisher Tower aid lines is also important. I'm not much of an aid climber, but my friends who have aided in the Fishers did so because of it's fearsome reputation. They brought hammers and pins and replaced a number of worthless placements. That's part of the deal when you do these lines, right? It's similar to climbing a sketchy copper-head seam on El Cap. It's aid climbing, not free climbing.

Has the general climber populace then decided that this route is to have bomber bolt ladders that require no inspection before weighting? Are bounce testing and replacing worthless pins beyond the expected skill level of those that frequent this route?

abandonedaccount1 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 5
Travis Haussener · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

It seems like these desert stories always boil down to one simple fact: When you come to these places, whether that be Castle Valley, Indian Creek, Potash road, or Fisher towers you will run into two groups. 1. People that are there to climb and 2. People that are there for the experience and it has and will always create animosity. For some reason IMHO this is always been more prevalent in the desert.

I see it all the time at the creek. Some are in bed by 8 up by 6, others are still out burning into the wee hours of the night.

The OP if I'm judging correctly was in the latter group (there to climb) and was out ready to do so. However, they ran into a large party that albeit had good intentions (bolting, fixing, etc) were there more so for the experience. This was obviously exasperated by a large group on a busy, yet beautiful fall day.

This is merely my observation, I unfortunately have no simple solutions to solving this problem...maybe I just wanted to hear myself talk.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

"maybe I just wanted to hear myself talk"

As much as I love to bash CO and all the east coasters that move there only to drive to Utah every weekend I really really love bashing the Happy Valley aka Provo aka magic underwear lala land. In this case though I think the early bird takes the cake and I wont bash anyone. have a nice day!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern Utah Deserts
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