What is this world coming to - Part II

Provo UT...pays for Utah roads

Grand Junction CO...hmmm???

Marc H wrote: Shit like this always gives me a good laugh. Grand Junction, CO to Moab: 113 mi Provo, UT to Moab: 191 mi Carry on.

Lafayette, CO to Moab: 365 miles. What's your point?

Andy, my apologies. I shouldn't stereotype you.

For the record, desert towers, cracks, and trad in general aren't my thing. And yeah, Utahans don't own all Utah routes. And yeah, Colorado is a lovely place, I like to visit sometimes too. Apologies for the generic Colorado insult.

My point is, you can't show up and have a tantrum because someone happens to be maintaining hardware on the route you had in mind. Darren works hard to keep routes safe. It's a real bummer that some people got shut out that weekend, but it's not like he's ONLY allowed to maintain routes on weekdays in the rain. Bringing a whole crew up there is one thing, but whatever, the glue was wet anyways. I offer my two cents because I think DK is a guy who deserves much more respect than he's getting here, and that's all.

Marc H wrote: Shit like this always gives me a good laugh. Grand Junction, CO to Moab: 113 mi Provo, UT to Moab: 191 mi Carry on.

It's even a bit less from GJ if you take the back roads to Castle Valley/Fishers. And a bit more if you're coming from the west.

Regardless, its always pretty funny how people swear allegiances to arbitrarily defined borders.

Anson Call wrote: Lafayette, CO to Moab: 365 miles. What's your point? Andy, my apologies. I shouldn't stereotype you. For the record, desert towers, cracks, and trad in general aren't my thing. And yeah, Utahans don't own all Utah routes. And yeah, Colorado is a lovely place, I like to visit sometimes too. Apologies for the generic Colorado insult. My point is, you can't show up and have a tantrum because someone happens to be maintaining hardware on the route you had in mind. Darren works hard to keep routes safe. It's a real bummer that some people got shut out that weekend, but it's not like he's ONLY allowed to maintain routes on weekdays in the rain. Bringing a whole crew up there is one thing, but whatever, the glue was wet anyways. I offer my two cents because I think DK is a guy who deserves much more respect than he's getting here, and that's all.

x2

Anson Call wrote:Thank goodness we have real generous people to fix up gear on the towers so the 'Radoans can show up on the weekends, take instagram photos, and leave. Andy, give it a break. "absolute bullshit," eh? How exactly were you planning to stick clip your way through spinners and non-existent pitons? Enjoy the glue-ins on your next Utah trip. Or - better yet - stay in Colorado.

Didn't a ton of the towers get put up initially by people from Colorado? And what wasn't is rounded out by people again NOT from Utah.

Dunn? Kor? Carter?

Hey Darren,

First of all I'd like say thank you for all the hard work you have done for the community maintaining routes. The reason I made this post was not to be disrespectful or misleading, I made this post to hopefully educate people to prevent this type of encounter in the future.

The reason we had thought many of the climbers were beginners is that there was what appeared to be a guide instructing the large group on jugging lines and removing revit hangers - not because there were women in the group. Comments like this define "judgemental." I climb with several women who are far stronger/ more experienced than me and I would never pass this type of judgement simply because they are women. Making this statement is not only offensive but is inaccurate. Based on what we had seen, people being instructed on jugging, etc and watching them jug the lines I'd say we made a reasonable assessment that it was possible the group (minus the leaders/ guides) were beginners. We were in no way trying to talk down on this aspect, just merely trying to point out we were disappointed to see such a large group "gang bang" the route turning away us and another guy from Boulder (we talked to him in the parking lot). Seemed like an unconventional way to rebolt a route, especially a tower.

In regards to the condition of the route, you are probably right, we would of gotten to pitch 3 and been turned around by missing bolts. Regardless, this is part of the experience.

Thanks again for your efforts in rebolting the route and I'm sorry that you took this post in the wrong way. I in no way tried to misrepresent the situation and tried to make it clear that you seemed like a nice guy and provided us with other alternative options. Regardless this post seemed necessary so others don't have to experience this type of situation.

This is a public forum, as a member of the public, here's my two cents.

1. They were there first, you weren't

2. They were there to contribute to the climbing, you weren't

hmm....

3. 10-12 people at a popular crag on a nice weekend... sounds normal to me, when I want to climb popular crags and not deal with crowds I go on weekdays.

4. Skill level has nothing to do with who should get to climb a route.

5. Kingfisher doesn't belong to any of us, which means if a group of 12 friends wants to get together and occupy it all day, they can... who are you to tell them can't do that? The climbing police? nope sorry...

6. Where you're from, where the FA is from, and where the climb is has absolutely nothing to do with who should get to climb it... the fact is, it's a climb, so climbers from anywhere and everywhere are going to climb it.

7. Better that a large group go over safety before climbing, whether experienced or not, there wouldn't be nearly as many accidents in climbing if people would gather together before a climbing expedition and discuss safety topics (such as how to properly jug).

Next time you don't get your way, don't complain, find something else to do or climb (like you did), move on, and have a good time.

James Dean Anderson wrote:Hey Darren, First of all I'd like say thank you for all the hard work you have done for the community maintaining routes. The reason I made this post was not to be disrespectful or misleading, I made this post to hopefully educate people to prevent this type of encounter in the future. The reason we had thought many of the climbers were beginners is that there was what appeared to be a guide instructing the large group on jugging lines and removing revit hangers - not because there were women in the group. Comments like this define "judgemental." I climb with several women who are far stronger/ more experienced than me and I would never pass this type of judgement simply because they are women. Making this statement is not only offensive but is inaccurate. Based on what we had seen, people being instructed on jugging, etc and watching them jug the lines I'd say we made a reasonable assessment that it was possible the group (minus the leaders/ guides) were beginners. We were in no way trying to talk down on this aspect, just merely trying to point out we were disappointed to see such a large group "gang bang" the route turning away us and another guy from Boulder (we talked to him in the parking lot). Seemed like an unconventional way to rebolt a route, especially a tower. In regards to the condition of the route, you are probably right, we would of gotten to pitch 3 and been turned around by missing bolts. Regardless, this is part of the experience. Thanks again for your efforts in rebolting the route and I'm sorry that you took this post in the wrong way. I in no way tried to misrepresent the situation and tried to make it clear that you seemed like a nice guy and provided us with other alternative options. Regardless this post seemed necessary so others don't have to experience this type of situation.

Whoa. OP keeping his ego in check? Apologies offered? A situation being defused instead of exacerbated? Is this still Mountain Project?! Where did these grown-ups come from?

Andy Novak wrote:The FACTS are that you and your "club" occupied a classic route for an entire weekend so no other parties had ANY hope of climbing it. There was another party that bailed when they heard of your shenanigans. So that's two separate parties that you guys screwed. It doesn't take a party of TWELVE to replace a few bolts.

I thought he said that he went with the goal to replace the old/broken gear with new glue-ins, which take 24 hours to cure anyways, and so he figured he might as well use that time as a learning experience for other people since nobody should be touching those bolts during that time anyways. So even if their party had left, the climb shouldn't have been done by the OP since the bolts wouldn't have had time to cure.

Hey Anson, some of us "Rodans" have been climbing desert towers and around Utah longer than you've been alive, newbee.

After reading his post, I'm convinced that your buddy DK is a tool. Somebody should report him and his shop in Provo to the BLM for illegal guiding.

When did the climbing community become so hostile, arrogant and entitled? One of my favorite reasons for getting into the sport was the support of the climbing community as a whole.

I just don't get it, but then I don't aid climb either so perhaps I am missing the point. How can anyone come to Moab from anywhere, Boulder/Golden or otherwise and get perturbed enough to write up a rant entitled (pun intended) "what is the world coming to" because someone else was on a route they wanted? I was there last week and climbed on Crack Wars, Honeymoon Chimney, Holier Than Thou and the Ramp and not a soul in sight all three days...ok four actually, two young ladies climbing Fine Jade one day came over to watch us on the Priest and one young man hiking around the Rectory and one tough ole hiker bushwhacking down the north side of the CO river. That is it. Moab Tower climbing is a large sampling limited only by ones abilities which is clearly their own responsibility.

If you are limited to being a weekend warrior, don't blame it on others rather change your lifestyle and/or be prepared (and thus satisfied) to climb different routes in the area you are headed.

I no longer camp at the free campground below Castleton as it is full of loose dogs shitting everywhere and hoards of youngsters more interested in talking about climbing all night than actually doing it. So...I don't camp there anymore. That was easy. I am not going to start a rant "what is the world coming to"....rather simply make adjustments that will make me a happy person and camp elsewhere.

I would never venture into the Fishers or anywhere else that popular without multiple routes in mind...and I can assure you, you have never and will never catch me waiting in line to climb anything. Who wants to climb below or above anyone? I see it at Red Rock all the time, but simply don't get it unless folks maybe feel safer that way? Some of you might need to examine why you are into this hobby to begin with.

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. Buddha

Anson Call wrote:Lafayette, CO to Moab: 365 miles. What's your point?

Jason elaborated since you couldn't figure it out.

Jason N. wrote:Regardless, its always pretty funny how people swear allegiances to arbitrarily defined borders.

Like Marc said, some kind of notice on public boards (MP, etc) would have been nice.

Brad White wrote:Hey Anson, some of us "Rodans" have been climbing desert towers and around Utah longer than you've been alive, newbee. After reading his post, I'm convinced that your buddy DK is a tool. Somebody should report him and his shop in Provo to the BLM for illegal guiding.

someone should report you for being a jerk... Guideline #1... you just called two people names... hmm... sounds like Guideline #1 has been broken to me...

Christian wrote:Like Marc said, some kind of notice on public boards (MP, etc) would have been nice.

Nice, but not legally required.

I no longer camp at the free campground below Castleton as it is full of loose dogs shitting everywhere and hoards of youngsters more interested in talking about climbing all night than actually doing it.

Love it

NateB wrote: This is why commercial guiding on BLM land requires a permit. Large groups and frequent use by a few for profit unfairly strains camping and parking as well. I was inspired enough by the arrogance on display here to generate a PDF of this thread and send it to the Moab BLM office this AM. I hope they carry through. More-so, I'm glad nobody got hurt. Jugging can be complicated and dangerous. I have no idea how a few could properly supervise and ensure the safety of such a large group of noobs spread out all over that route.

Wow. I think it was pretty obvious that there was no guiding here. You just pulled the equivalent of running off to tattle-tale to mommy and daddy, based on a pretty weak interpretation of "guiding". Even if I knew nothing about DK or the situation, I'd tell you that scampering off to the BLM is a pretty shitty thing to do.

PS - sounds like there was a ton of profit-making going on there...what with all the glue-in bolts getting installed and whatnot. I'm sure that DK made tons of money off that day.

NateB wrote: This is why commercial guiding on BLM land requires a permit. Large groups and frequent use by a few for profit unfairly strains camping and parking as well. I was inspired enough by the arrogance on display here to generate a PDF of this thread and send it to the Moab BLM office this AM. I hope they carry through. More-so, I'm glad nobody got hurt. Jugging can be complicated and dangerous. I have no idea how a few could properly supervise and ensure the safety of such a large group of noobs spread out all over that route.

Did you not read the post from Darren? This trip wasn't a guided trip, it was him and some of his friends going down to learn how to re-equip routes... there's a difference... also you just broke guideline #1 so I don't feel bad calling you a jerk... jerk!