AMGA Top Rope Cert only game in town?

The late great Jim Ebert used to have a Top Rope Certification. Does anything like it still exist? We have a 4-H Rock Climbing Project (Devil's Lake WI) that has been running for 11 years but we are now told we must have a certified guide on-site at all climbs. YIKES and dollars! Anyone else doing a recognized certification for more reasonable dollars?

If you are a competent guide and need to save some money, you might be able to challenge the SPI assessment and skip taking the course. You need to email the climbing instructor program director, Ed Crothers (ed@amga.com), to ask if you can challenge. Here is some info from the AMGA:

AMGA SINGLE PITCH INSTRUCTOR COURSE EXEMPTION

Experienced candidates with many years of climbing and teaching experience can apply to the Climbing Instructor Program Director for exemption from training and take the SPI Assessment without completing an SPI Course. This option is also available to individuals who have taken the AMGA Rock Instructor Course and received an outstanding evaluation from the course instructors. Before considering this option one should realize that ongoing training and having a chance to work with your peers in a course environment is invaluable for all instructors at anytime in their instructing career. Skills taught are instructor specific and many topics taught on the class are updated annually as new techniques, equipment and philosophies come to light. In the rare instance that an individual would qualify for an exemption from the AMGA SPI course, the candidate would apply via email to the AMGA Climbing Instructor Program Director, showing the following:

• That you have current membership of the AMGA. If you are not please join the AMGA before emailing the CIP Director.

• A current climbing resume showing experience far in excess of the minimum SPI Assessment prerequisites. (See list of assessment prerequisites below.)

• An instructional resume detailing where you have worked, your role, when, for whom.

• Information detailing your previous training, where, when, by whom.

• Reasons for not wishing to take the AMGA SPI Course.

• If applicable, course end evaluation from AMGA Rock Instructor Course.

Typical climbing experience of individuals granted a SPI exemption:

• Have had 100+ days of rock climbing experience over 4+ years.

• Have had 80+ days of professional experience teaching rock climbing to novices in outdoor settings.

• Have led 80+ trad routes, ideally 5.6 and harder in a variety of areas.

• Can comfortably climb 5.8 on top rope and 5.6 while leading trad routes. Additional experience that influence candidate’s exemption eligibility:

• Have 4+ years full-time or seasonal full-time field experience at NOLS, Outward Bound or other nationally recognized and accredited wilderness based, experiential education program.

• Post graduate instruction for or management of a college level outdoor education or recreation program for 5+ years.

• Graduate of four-year college level outdoor program that is accredited by the AEE or the AMGA.

• Technical Rescue training from nationally recognized training center or organization accredited by the Mountain Rescue Association.

• Extensive experience teaching technical ice climbing in Single Pitch terrain.

Pre-Requisites For SPI Assessment

The SPI assessment can be taken directly following the SPI course if the candidate successfully completed the course and meets the assessment pre-requisites. However, it is highly recommended that the SPI course candidate takes time practicing and consolidating the skills learned on the course before assessment (6-12 months).You meet the SPI Assessment Prerequisites if:

• You have successfully completed an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor Course or AMGA Top Rope Site Manager Course.

• You have successfully completed the AMGA Rock Instructor Course.

• You have trad lead climbed a minimum of 40 rock climbing routes. A large number of these should be at 5.6 grade and hopefully on a variety of rock types.

• You are capable of comfortably lead climbing 5.6 traditional routes (leader placing protection). You will demonstrate your leading ability on a variety of routes on the assessment.

• You are capable of comfortably climbing 5.8 while on a top rope.

The above prerequisites are absolute minimums and most candidates have way in excess of the above. Without having at least this amount experience you are unlikely to pass an SPI Assessment.

Getting an AMGA top rope cert is a bit like buying a month's worth of Advocare. You're probably going to pat yourself on the back for a day, then spend a lot of time thereafter regretting the money spent.

The American Mountain Guide Association is a pretentious organization founded on a sound principle. IE, setting standards for consumers to judge a potential mountain guide on before paying for their services.

Then it kinda turned into a wang-size comparison thing. And apparently the AMGA's lawyers are REALLY good at working with insurance companies. So boom, now you have to have a certified guide on hand at all times.

Honestly, that course is a joke, but it isn't too expensive in the grand scheme of things. So bite the bullet and send one or two people to take it, then go about your business. If you aren't able to pass with flying colors (with your eyes closed) then you probably shouldn't be taking kids out anyway.

Or, you know, go get an equivalent PCGI (professional climbing guides institute) certification and roll the dice on whether or not that will pass muster.*

• please note that I actually really admire the PCGI organization, and wish them all the best. But AMGA is the monopoly, and you're going to have to deal with a weekend of a condescending, overpaid "guide" telling you how to get kids on a top rope if you want to keep the program going.

Jeff VS wrote:The late great Jim Ebert used to have a Top Rope Certification. Does anything like it still exist? We have a 4-H Rock Climbing Project (Devil's Lake WI) that has been running for 11 years but we are now told we must have a certified guide on-site at all climbs. YIKES and dollars! Anyone else doing a recognized certification for more reasonable dollars?

Tell the bosses there are no legitimate certifications available for what you are doing. Its only half untrue anyway. The AMGA top rope certification and SPI course is a joke for any experienced climber. Their courses are not worth anything until you get to rock instructor and rock guide.

I had a 4-H Rescue/ Climbing program for 15 years, great times. The AMGA SPI course is very good, well worth the money.
If you are that experienced take a look at the ‘Rock Climbing: The AMGA Single Pitch Manual

amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Si…

Teach it in house, you can clam your training is to the AMGA SPI standard.

If you need a piece of paper The Boy Scouts of America also has a Climbing instructor certification, there nation camp school is about $400.00 that includes a week of training, food and lodging.

The schools are once a year in the spring. Some BSA council are also doing their Level II course year round.

Rick

The PCIA (Professional Climbing Instructors Association) offers a modular format for entry level climbing instructors beginning with Base Managed Climbing Instructor (BMCI) through Single Pitch Climbing Instructor (SPCI). I am confident that the vast majority of climbers who invest in a PCIA course will find it well worth the time. The PCIA also offer a site specific training for summer camp employees, etc. The standard course is three days with a one day exam and the Top Managed / Single Pitch module can be completed in an additional day for those who pass the BMCI exam and meet the prerequisites.

PCIA

The PCIA offers reciprocal certification (AMGA SPI) and allows individuals to challenge certification exams.

ORGANIZATIONAL OVERVIEW
The PCIA educational program was designed to provide focused, sequential instruction and credentialing in the art and science of climbing instruction.

PCIA programs are intended for individuals who already do or desire to instruct climbing skills, facilitate climbing experiences or monitor climbing activities. Typical participants include climbing school instructors,
climbing gym staff, camp staff, leaders of scouting groups, and university and school adventure program leaders. Many recreational climbers take courses simply for the purpose of becoming a better informed and safer climber. For individuals aspiring to be professional mountain guides, the PCIA curriculum provides a comprehensive exposure to fundamental climbing knowledge and instructional skills that will prove invaluable for future entry into more advanced guide training programs and are not typically addressed in guide training courses.

The sequentially designed courses recognize the important differences and similarities that exist between climbing instruction that takes place on artificial structures, base managed, top managed, single pitch and
multi-pitch climbing sites. Available in convenient 1- 5 day teaching modules, the PCIA courses are well suited to various forms of climbing instruction.
By providing a consistent, standardized and tiered approach to entry level climbing instruction the PCIA seeks to improve the safety of climbing at all levels. The PCIA believes that good climbing and instructional habits should be
formed as early as possible. This is the premise behind the new Climbing Site Belayer program as well. The sequential course format is proving to be very user friendly. One of the great aspects of the educational sequence is that participants have far less stress than in other models because they can learn and be evaluated incrementally and receive a certification that is truly appropriate to their skill levels. Instructionally, people are able to come to the PCIA earlier to begin their instructor development and this sets up a scenario of sound learning right from the beginning making for far less need for error correction and skill remediation at the Top Managed, Single Pitch and Lead Climbing Instructor levels. In essence, good habits build good habits!

The founders of the PCIA (who incidentally also created and led the AMGA climbing instructor program for several years) felt that the needs of climbing instructors would be better served through a separate organization with a mission focused soley on instructor education. This belief was well supported through a survey of over 1200 outdoor professionals including certified guides. This would allow a tiered curriculum approach and by creating a totally separate certification naming convention minimize the issue expressed by certified AMGA rock guides about entry level instructors being AMGA certified. The PCIA founders also believed that they could better manage consistency and quality assurance among the providers. They also recognized that there are many very capable climbing instructors in the outdoor education realm who were not AMGA certified Rock Instructors or higher and, for various reasons, may not ever be. By opening the door to these highly skilled providers, the PCIA created a network of highly experienced educators to instruct courses.

So how have we done? The highest compliment is when others who once challenged you now follow your lead. Since the inception of the PCIA at least two other organizations have established similar training programs. We have witnessed existing organizations rethink and retool their programs and, not surprisingly, molding them more closely along the lines of the PCIA. The PCIA will continue to
lead the climbing instructor profession and we pledge to continue to explore ways to become better educators, provide more evidence-based information and improve the delivery of climbing instruction.

Rick, even if you teach everything in the book, that does not mean that the students have been trained to an SPI standard. All that it means is that you can read a book. That book does not cover everything that is taught in an SPI course and the book will not give you the feed back that an SPI provider will about your level of competence with the materials taught in the course. The book is a great reference but does not come close to the instructional level that one would get by taking the course with a SPI provider.

Jeff VS wrote:We have a 4-H Rock Climbing Project (Devil's Lake WI) that has been running for 11 years but we are now told we must have a certified guide on-site at all climbs.

Grab the 4-H emblem off of anything, print up a Certification for Rock Climbing Guide and print it out. A 4-H certification is as good as any. There is no legal precedent for climbing certification. Present it as your credentials and continue what you have been doing for 11 years.

I am in no way saying that other instruction/certification is invalid or inferior. I totally respect and encourage the AMGA programs. But, on the other hand, I really hate the litigious liability mind set that would require someone else to "certify" a program that has been working for 11 years.

Thanks to all for your responses. We have a meeting with risk management Nov 20 to decide the fate of our 4-H climbing project.

Here are my feelings about your excellent responses. More training is always a good idea. 4-H is, of course, NOT a professional climbing service so the training mentioned (except the BSA training) is not a perfect fit but still very useful. All our leaders and belayers are volunteers so $$$ and Time for training classes are problematical. Most of us are in our 50's and 60's (I'm 63) and have been climbing for 30-40 years at lots of locations. I like the idea of "self certifying" our project but we will see what risk management thinks of the idea.

It would be such a shame to lose a project like this considering we live next to one of the finest climbing areas in the US. Send us your good wishes and prayers.

"Who" is requiring you to be "certified"? The 4-H lawyers? What arbitrary certification criteria are they specifying? I can appreciate the concern to have qualified people leading kids and not just random people who think they know more than they really do, but I'd really look at the suggestions for developing your own in-house certification rather than kill the program by requiring people to go off to a 5-day program that will end up costing close to $1,000 after classes, assessment, and travel fees.

Document the skills required, build a curriculum, and establish objective certification criteria. Document people's progress and issue your certifications.

Edit: Just saw that's what you are planning to do. If it were me, I'd create the certification guide curriculum and testing standards outline and present that. Go in selling it as the solution, not asking if it's "good enough".

Jeff,

I know this thread's more than six-months old now but would be interested to hear about your experience. I saw my colleague Rick Krause commenting on the thread with some great thoughts.

I'd add that for the Boy Scouts, there is a national level loosely defined structure that each regional area then has to provide alot of program development for. So many of us have been in a similiar situation of trying to develop training and policies for climbing. I'd be happy to share the online learning and testing environment I put together for our program in the Northern VA, MD, DC area. It includes written exam questions addressing technical skills, site and risk management, inventory and gear, and other issues. Happy to help you anyway I can.

My goal was to address the time and money concerns with volunteers you mentioned. My approach was to do as much "book learning" as possible on the online portal and focus all the in-person time on rock reviewing and assessing the skills. If someone's not quite ready the first time we make the trainign modular enough that they can build their skills gradually.

All our large group activities are required to be top-roped (possibly yours as well?) so that simplifies the level of instruction and complexity dramatically. I'd love to see our programs expand to include more sport and traditional leading but that naturally entails alot more support from professional guide and instructors, and certifications at a rock instructor or guide level.. typically beyond the scope of things volunteers can easily absorb.. unless they are very avid and active climbers. My $.02..

FYI, our 4-H climbing project was put "on hold" this year while 4 of us took the PCIA Base Managed climbing course. Our local PCIA instructor/certifier, Eric Barnard, of Winona State University (MN), was excellent and the course was well worth the time. The state 4-H office picked up the tab for 2 of us so $$ not too spendy. We still have many hoops to jump through before we will be allowed to run our project again but there is high hope. Thanks for all the good wishes and suggestions over the last year.

BTW, know anyone of college age who wants to go into Outdoor Adventure Education? The program and facilities at Winona State are amazing! winona.edu/rttr/default.asp