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Rapping directly off bolt hangers

Original Post
Sir Spanxalot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 5

So I did the first pitch of a climb the other day, and it got a little nasty, so my partner and I decided to rap off. I just ran the rope through the hangars, but they weren't the nice rap hangars, just your regular fixe(?) or similar hangar. Is this bad form? My rope seems fine, but I couldn't help think those are some pretty sharp edges.

Thoughts?

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

^^^ somebody prolly stole the biners. Damn traddies' "booty" mentality.

Sir Spanxalot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 5

It is for sure a belay below the second pitch. I think it is intended that you top out, but we didn't. I will probably leave some old ovals there if I return.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Yeah, if it's a multi-pitch climb with a walk-off, it's not going to always/usually have rap rings. Prepare to leave a couple of carabiners or Quicklinks if you decide to bail.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Use quicklinks (2 per bolt) and tighten them down with a wrench. They will stay there almost indefinitely, regardless of whether you are supposed to top out or not.

For your rope, it's probably fine. I'm sure you checked the parts that were loaded over the hangers and I'm sure you'd have mentioned if there was a discernible change in that section. Don't make a habit out of rapping off hangers.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
nicelegs wrote:Use quicklinks (2 per bolt) and tighten them down with a wrench.
... ONLY IF you are certain about the type of metal the bolt/hanger are made out of and match it. Throwing plated quicklinks on SS bolt/hangers would be a no no.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Morgan Patterson wrote: ... ONLY IF you are certain about the type of metal the bolt/hanger are made out of and match it. Throwing plated quicklinks on SS bolt/hangers would be a no no.
Technically true. In many areas, risk of death from untied shoelaces is probably higher than risk of death from mixed metals.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Christopher Gibson wrote:Just a question, if its a multipitch trad route meant to walk off then why would anyone crank down 4 quick links with a wrench to stay indefinitely? Why not just bail off of carabiners.
The only reason to do it is if the first pitch is of excellent quality and the second sucks. There are plenty of routes that top out that aren't worth it past the first pitch. Cranky old men and their young henchmen steal biners left at the belay so tightening something in place would be prudent.

If you're at an obscure area with a bolted first pitch anchor that's not likely to be repeated soon or ever get popular, no, there is no reason to leave anything permanent if you bail. Run webbing straight through the anchor and rap off that in that situation.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Sir Spanxalot wrote:I just ran the rope through the hangars, but they weren't the nice rap hangars, just your regular fixe(?) or similar hangar. Is this bad form? My rope seems fine, but I couldn't help think those are some pretty sharp edges. Thoughts?
Besides abusing the rope on the pull-down, depending on the positions of the bolts coupled with the sharp-ish edges, it may be impossible to pull the rope from the bottom. In your case it worked out, but consider the outcome if you couldn't pull the rope and you still had two more rappels to do.

In short, don't do this. Leave a couple of bail biners or something.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
nicelegs wrote: Technically true.
And as it happens, principally as well, in fact, its true in all forms ;-P

Don't mix metals and if you don't know 100% then just use some aluminum biners. This isn't some existential theoretical threat. I've seen mixed stuff in our state and some parts look new and others bristle as a graham cracker.
Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 191

I carry quad SS Petzl quick links for this situation. Yes metal mix is a no-no, but the SS quick-links on zink plated Fixe's does not provide the same galvanization as SS bolts into Fixe zink hanger, or vice-a-versa. Quick links on a hanger provide a whole lot less contact point, ergo, less galvanization.

Is it better to match metals? Absolutely! Is it a sin to place SS quick links on zinc hangers? Perhaps the engineers can provide an absolute answer, but I give it 15 years of life.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Dallas R wrote:I carry quad SS Petzl quick links for this situation. Yes metal mix is a no-no, but the SS quick-links on zink plated Fixe's does not provide the same galvanization as SS bolts into Fixe zink hanger, or vice-a-versa. Quick links on a hanger provide a whole lot less contact point, ergo, less galvanization. Is it better to match metals? Absolutely! Is it a sin to place SS quick links on zinc hangers? Perhaps the engineers can provide an absolute answer, but I give it 15 years of life.
okay, here's the perspective of an engineer, for galvanic corrosion to take place there has to be an electrolyte between the two metals, in the case of a hanger and a quicklink where there isn't really a place for the moisture to get trapped between them galvanic corrosion will not take place (except when an electrolyte is present). When you see badly rusted quicklinks on a stainless hanger it's generally not due to galvanic corrosion, it's just normal corrosion of the non-stainless steel. Basically, mixing stainless hangers with plated quicklinks is not a problem from a galvanic corrosion perspective, this doesn't mean that the quicklinks won't corrode, but it's not due to mixing metals.
BJB · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 195

Be careful rapping off of plain hangers that don't have rap links or quick link type things attached to them. The first multipitch I ever did, I rapped off of a pair of hangers with not rings or anything and my rope got completely stuck and I had to reclimb up to unstuck the rope (we had an emergency rope).

All of the suggestions about carrying bail caribiners are great. I often just use a small loop of webbing though. You can tie it through the hangers and create a little loop that you rappel off. But if that is the technique you are going to use, you must NEVER lower a climber off of the loop of webbing or the moving, weighted rope will saw through the webbing. Instead you should run the rope through the loop of webbing until you reach the mid point of the rope, rappel down, then pull the rope through. It creates a bit of litter, so it's not preferred in areas where that is a big issue, but it is probably your safest option if you don't have bail carabiners and you have to rap off of two hangers.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
kennoyce wrote: okay, here's the perspective of an engineer, for galvanic corrosion to take place there has to be an electrolyte between the two metals, in the case of a hanger and a quicklink where there isn't really a place for the moisture to get trapped between them galvanic corrosion will not take place (except when an electrolyte is present). When you see badly rusted quicklinks on a stainless hanger it's generally not due to galvanic corrosion, it's just normal corrosion of the non-stainless steel. Basically, mixing stainless hangers with plated quicklinks is not a problem from a galvanic corrosion perspective, this doesn't mean that the quicklinks won't corrode, but it's not due to mixing metals.
I'm really glad you responded. I knew that Morgan was being overly dramatic and making a big deal of a problem that either doesn't exist or exists in few places in the world. My 98% in Chem 101 didn't leave me with the tools to tell him why though. Lately, I've done nothing but derail threads, so I let him have his silly little thing. Matching metals does no harm, so have at it.

Funny thing, in places where corrosion is a big issue, like Thailand and the Caymans, the glue ins are round and a diameter that doesn't hurt the rope.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Dallas R wrote:I carry quad SS Petzl quick links for this situation. Yes metal mix is a no-no, but the SS quick-links on zink plated Fixe's does not provide the same galvanization as SS bolts into Fixe zink hanger, or vice-a-versa. Quick links on a hanger provide a whole lot less contact point, ergo, less galvanization. Is it better to match metals? Absolutely! Is it a sin to place SS quick links on zinc hangers? Perhaps the engineers can provide an absolute answer, but I give it 15 years of life.
I agree with Kennoyce, it's not a major concern, especially considering it's easy to replace quicklinks.
Dallas R · · Traveling the USA · Joined May 2013 · Points: 191

Sweet, I really want to be a good responsible climber.

Emergency web; ok, I wouldn't. I prefer to donate booty to the better climbers. If I have to bail on a sport route (happens more than I would like) then you will find a BD oval.

I save the Petzl quick links to donate at anchors.

J. Serpico · · Saratoga County, NY · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 140

Well at least you were informed enough to know there are flat rap bolts. I never saw or heard of them before, always saw chains or rings on anchors for rappels. so my partners and I ended up on the incorrect rap line (one that had rings). My understanding is rapping off bolts is a no no. If oriented right they could cut the rope or the rope could get stuck.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
nicelegs wrote: I'm really glad you responded. I knew that Morgan was being overly dramatic and making a big deal of a problem that either doesn't exist or exists in few places in the world. My 98% in Chem 101 didn't leave me with the tools to tell him why though. Lately, I've done nothing but derail threads, so I let him have his silly little thing. Matching metals does no harm, so have at it. Funny thing, in places where corrosion is a big issue, like Thailand and the Caymans, the glue ins are round and a diameter that doesn't hurt the rope.
Fair enough... carry on.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
J. Serpico wrote:Well at least you were informed enough to know there are flat rap bolts. I never saw or heard of them before, always saw chains or rings on anchors for rappels. so my partners and I ended up on the incorrect rap line (one that had rings). My understanding is rapping off bolts is a no no. If oriented right they could cut the rope or the rope could get stuck.
Getting stuck is far more likely than being cut. You can thread the rope directly through these but not regular bolt hangers. Not many folks using them anymore on new routes, but there are many currently installed in the wild.
Levijr · · Spokane · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 0

Just to throw in my engineering two cents on the discussion on combining metals:

Galvanic corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals are in contact with one another in the presence of an electrolyte. One metals behaves as an anode and the other as a cathode. The anodic metal is the one that is sacrificed, or dissolved in the process. How far the metals are apart on the galvanic series chart is one of the main determining factors for the rate of corrosion. The other factor is the relative surface area of the anode compared to the cathode.

Stainless steel is more cathodic in the series than zinc-plated or galvanized steel, therefore in galvanic corrosion, the galvanized metal is the one being sacrificed in this scenario. The relative size of the quick-link compared to the hanger may explain Dallas R's response about the different rates of corrosion. I personally cannot speak to that issue.

The principle electrolyte encountered in rock climbing is water (rain, snow, humidity, etc.), so obviously the presence (or lack there of) of an electrolyte will largely depend on the geographical location of the climb. It is entirely possible for water to be in contact between a quick-link and a bolt hanger, especially hangers bolted on slab or horizontal shelves. Next time you're at a hanger, pour some water on it and see how by simple capillary action, the water will cling to the metal. If you're climbing in a place with relatively low annual precipitation, galvanic corrosion may not be as much of a concern as it is in areas such as the Northwest. As a Spokane Washington native, I have seen first-hand the effects of galvanic corrosion between a stainless steel hanger and a galvanized quick-link or vice versa at the local crag, Leavenworth, Mazama, etc. where we encounter much more annual precipitation.

TL:DR
What you have is a problem that can be answered with the classic engineering response: "It depends." I personally wouldn't say this is a black and white issue.

Hope that provides some more insight!

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

As mentioned above I would use a ditch sling to rap off rather then run the rope through the hangers.
Depending on the length of the rap, one can also rig a retrievable rappel anchor (i.e. retrieve the sling).

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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