Front Rangers - when do you mount up your snow tires?

Nokian Hakkapeliittas, 7/8 are studded, r/r2 are non studded,

WRG3/2 are the all seasons that are winter rated and BAD ASS. You wouldn't need a dedicated winter tire if you get these bad boys...

Are also readily available in US: Tiresbyweb.com

I just put mine on over the weekend and had trip over vail pass to minturn on Monday and they car felt glued to the road compared to my summer tires. Chain rules were in effect at the time and there was a lot of ice and slush.

I couldn't imaging living 50 percent of my time in breck without them. Michelin x-ice. Haven't used studs in probably 10 years.

John McNamee wrote: I couldn't imaging living 50 percent of my time in breck without them.

know a Diana Sabreen?

Vaughne wrote:I put mine on during halftime Sunday. 35 minutes without an impact wrench, beat that ya punters!

Ha! Well done!

Morgan Patterson wrote: know a Diana Sabreen?

No I don't.

jmeizis wrote: I can judge that I see plenty of trucks and Subarus in the ditch all winter long. Correlation doesn't equal causation but perhaps people get overconfident. Zamboni's have studded tires, trust me you can still spin that shit out. Never used them on my car is what I should of said. For the 10% of the winter when safety cannot be improved by simply slowing down a little I don't think it's worth the money to get snow tires. Just stay home or carpool with someone else. This coming from someone who has received speeding tickets in snow storms. Most people here and elsewhere kind of suck at driving in the snow. It's just physics...

And I can judge that you don't drive much, if any, in the mountains in the winter. For example, back in my BS era (Before Studs) I came to a complete stop on on a banked curve due to an accident ahead of me. My car, and the three behind me, all slid sideways across the other lane and into the ditch. That happened twice. So Mr. Physics, explain how "just slowing down" will prevent that?

There's dozens of other examples where "just slowing down" doesn't do squat. But I will agree with you that "just stay home" sounds like sound advice for you.

Personally I've found on my cars and trucks with optional 4WD or AWD that FWD without snow tires is superior to AWD without snow tires. On the flip side, RWD, like most trucks/jeeps have tends to suck in snow. So why does AWD seem to be just a little better than RWD?

My guess is that the rear of the car is lighter and transferring power to those rear wheels doesn't actually improve grip, this is why you may see tons of Subarus in a ditch in the WINTER, it is over confidence on the turns, even if they can probably chug along on the straight in 6 inches of snow and 3 season tires. However, if they had quality snow tires on them you'd probably see a lot less of them in the ditch.

Personally, having tested this quite a bit. I turn off the AWD with the 3 season tires and then leave it on with the snow tires. But with my General Arctic Altimax and AWD on, my car pretty much has to be centered to get stuck. And stopping or driving through black ice is not quite as whiten knuckle as with 3 season tires.

Remember, even if it's not snowing, the rubber on a snow tire is designed for colder temps and ice. In Colorado you have more temperate weather than some other spots in the US, but snow tires actually perform much better than three season tires in very cold environments.

When the roads are really bad in my jeep I don't mind having extra heads to weigh down the back. I use the BF Goodrich all terrains and (knock on wood) I never had an issue. That being said I drive very cautiously and defensively when the roads are bad. I know my truck's limitations and merits, and there hasn't been conditions that I haven't been able to see through (again knock on wood).

I'd say it's minimum 50% being a good driver and knowing when to stay home. Back east 2 feet of snow I'd rush to the mountain...CO? I'll certainly consider how bad I want to risk getting stuck. You'll see all the aholes (yes they are) that aren't ready for the conditions, can't drive well and aren't able to deal with other bad drivers.

I still might invest in chains one of these days..just in case.

mark felber wrote: Studs are great if most of your driving is on unplowed roads or on ice, but they wear out in a hurry on bare pavement and they damage paved roads. I'm not sure how well they grip on bare pavement, either.

I think you're right about most of this, except the "they damage paved roads."
I know it's election season, but that needs context.

I think putting sand/gravel on the roadway causes much more damage. The amazing ruts that used to develop on I70 every few years heading up Lookout Mtn is an example of that damage. And the number of cracked windshields, headlights, driving lights, etc. used to number in the thousands every weekend. CO led the nation, by a LOT, in cracked windshields and our insurance rates reflected that.

So now CDOT uses Mag-Chloride, which has its own set of problems. Like making your windshield opaque (washer fluid sales skyrocketed, prices too). People run out of fluid, can't see, and have accidents. Mag-Chloride corrodes your car, kills trees and other vegetation, kills fish in nearby streams, makes "dry" pavement slippery and don't even THINK about brushing your car and getting it on your $350 Goretex jacket!

Requiring people to have studded snow tires just might be cheaper!

J. Serpico wrote:Personally I've found on my cars and trucks with optional 4WD or AWD that FWD without snow tires is superior to AWD without snow tires. On the flip side, RWD, like most trucks/jeeps have tends to suck in snow. So why does AWD seem to be just a little better than RWD? My guess is that the rear of the car is lighter and transferring power to those rear wheels doesn't actually improve grip, this is why you may see tons of Subarus in a ditch in the WINTER, it is over confidence on the turns, even if they can probably chug along on the straight in 6 inches of snow and 3 season tires. However, if they had quality snow tires on them you'd probably see a lot less of them in the ditch. Personally, having tested this quite a bit. I turn off the AWD with the 3 season tires and then leave it on with the snow tires. But with my General Arctic Altimax and AWD on, my car pretty much has to be centered to get stuck. And stopping or driving through black ice is not quite as whiten knuckle as with 3 season tires. Remember, even if it's not snowing, the rubber on a snow tire is designed for colder temps and ice. In Colorado you have more temperate weather than some other spots in the US, but snow tires actually perform much better than three season tires in very cold environments.

+1

I put 25K miles a year on my cars, and I used to do mountain rescue as well so being able to get out in really bad weather was a must. I drive a manual, front wheel drive hatchback with limited slip awd button I can push. Control with snow tires is 100x better than without. Read what snow tires are really made for - ice a packed snow - which is any plowed road in this state. Cant beat them. I used to wait until thanksgiving.

I consider winter tires part of the cost of any car I buy even if that means less money is available for other features. It's not about knowing how to drive or not, it's about significantly increasing control in emergency situations and confidence in everyday driving.

I never had an accident or serious problem in my 10ish years of driving on all-seasons, nor in my 10ish years on winter tires. Even so, I think the most responsible advice is to use winter tires. Traffic would flow better for everyone if we all could and would do that.

I agree with staying studless. Studs are loud, annoying, and less grippy on dry pavement.

I'm on my second set of Nokian's and I absolutely love them. I didn't know about the WRG3s but I'm very excited to get them when my current ones wear out so I can stop storing an extra set in my garage.

FWIW, my FWD Jetta wagon with Nokians feels way safer on ice than my wife's Outback with Blizzaks. I suspect that has more to do with the cars than the tires.

John Byrnes wrote: And I can judge that you don't drive much, if any, in the mountains in the winter. For example, back in my BS era (Before Studs) I came to a complete stop on on a banked curve due to an accident ahead of me. My car, and the three behind me, all slid sideways across the other lane and into the ditch. That happened twice. So Mr. Physics, explain how "just slowing down" will prevent that? There's dozens of other examples where "just slowing down" doesn't do squat. But I will agree with you that "just stay home" sounds like sound advice for you.

The 67,000 miles on a 2012 would suggest otherwise...guess I'm just magic.

Oh I love when threads explode.

I've got a set of already mounted Blizzaks on a set of steel wheels sitting in my storage locker. I don't have an impact wrench (apartment living... le sigh) but I can still do it by hand in about 45 minutes.

I've a Mazda 3 hatchback in manual and with the snow tires mounted, it's the little trooper that can do anything. I'm generally more confident in that than a friend's SUV with 4WD and stock all-season tires.

Snow tires are a must in my book, the difference is astonishing.

jmeizis wrote: The 67,000 miles on a 2012 would suggest otherwise...guess I'm just magic.

Sorry, I don't believe in magic. Of course, it's possible you just STAY HOME when the weather is bad.

As I said, I really don't care to convince you. And 67,000 in three years isn't all that amazing, especially if you have to drive for your work.

David Kovsky wrote:FWIW, my FWD Jetta wagon with Nokians feels way safer on ice than my wife's Outback with Blizzaks. I suspect that has more to do with the cars than the tires.

Nope, that's clearly the Nokians... seriously.

And suby's in the ditch are likely tire selection problem or an idiot behind the wheel.

I have found these vehicle/tire configurations to be equivalent in winter driving:

AWD SUV (Honda Pilot) with all season tires
FWD minivan (Honda Odyssey) with snow tires (not studded)
RWD station wagon (Mercedes E320) with snow tires (not studded)

In deep snow (such as 18" or more) I have had to put chains on the minivan and station wagon to feel comfortable driving on unplowed roads. I have never departed pavement with any of these, even in conditions that were apparently challenging for other 4WD/AWD vehicles.

However--I was once on a dirt road and encountered a canted, ice and snow-covered hill that I could not negotiate with the Pilot. Other SUVs were able to pass, I think because they had snow tires so there is likely an advantage in fitting an AWD with them. For getting to and back from skiing, though, all season tires on the Pilot have been adequate.

As for when I switch to snow tires, it's usually after the first storm.

Jon H wrote: Snow tires are a must in my book, the difference is astonishing.

Yup. Although losing your virginity and your first drive on good snow tires don't have a lot in common, they both provide an epiphany of the highest order: "NOW I know what everyone's talking about!"

I have driven rental cars in CO or other places in the winter. Alberta is a crazy place to drive in the snow. So yes you can drive in bad weather without snow tires and live. BUT.. Cars with studded tires are fun as shit to drive!! The first time I rode in a car with snow tires I was shocked. Then I asked if I could drive!

John Byrnes wrote: Yup. Although losing your virginity and your first drive on good snow tires don't have a lot in common, they both provide an epiphany of the highest order: "NOW I know what everyone's talking about!"

Hahahaha awesome and yep, totally agree!