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How do I narrow the sport-trad gap?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
SXL wrote: Per your advice (and others, thank you all!!!) I am planning to buy a bunch of cams (I already own two :P ). Would below be a reasonable Gunks rack? 1 Dragon 00 (Blue) 1 Dragon 0 (Silver) 1 Dragon 1 (Purple) 2 Dragon 2 (Green) 1 Dragon 3 (Red) 1 Dragon 4 (Gold) 1 Dragon 5 (Blue) 1 Alien 1/3 (black) 1 Alien 3/8 (blue) 1 Alien 1/2 (green) 1 Alien 3/4 (yellow) 1 Link Cam 0.5 (Purple) Set of ABS nuts (13) Set of DMM RPs (6) 10 mammut 24" 8mm slings 5 quick draws 2 4' wide nylon slings Would this get me up most Gunks routes? Is something extra? Should I add something?
I think it looks ok---I'm not a Dragon cam user but the rack is the right idea and will probably be fine. I suspect you'll find you want more than 5 draws, but you'll figure that out soon enough. I think that especially for the Gunks but for just about everywhere else other than parallel-sided sandstone, the best cams out there at present are the Totem cams, and that's what I'd recommend getting if you are springing for a new set. The narrow heads and flexible stems are hard to beat, although a Dragon or Camalot will probably prove to be more durable in the long run.

There is one thing I'd get rid of: the link cam. I think these are downright dangerous in Gunks horizontals; there have been too many incidents in which a Link Cam has broken at one of the thin joining links to trust stressing it in a horizontal placement. Plus the depth of the the unit may interfere with shallow horizontals. Link cams may have their uses in vertical parallel-sided granite or sandstone cracks but are really not a good idea for the Gunks.
Jon Clark · · Planet Earth · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 1,153
SXL wrote: That's more or less the way I'll go. Gunks has plenty of awesome climbing in all grades (except maybe the harder grades) and I can both get some easier mileage as well as jump on some harder projects ground-up.
Most, but certainly not all Gunks routes 5.11 and up are complicated to protect (as an onsight) and generally terrifying.
Eric D · · Gnarnia · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 235

There is no magic solution. Just climb a lot of trad.

SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10
rgold wrote: I think it looks ok---I'm not a Dragon cam user but the rack is the right idea and will probably be fine. I suspect you'll find you want more than 5 draws, but you'll figure that out soon enough. I think that especially for the Gunks but for just about everywhere else other than parallel-sided sandstone, the best cams out there at present are the Totem cams, and that's what I'd recommend getting if you are springing for a new set. The narrow heads and flexible stems are hard to beat, although a Dragon or Camalot will probably prove to be more durable in the long run. There is one thing I'd get rid of: the link cam. I think these are downright dangerous in Gunks horizontals; there have been too many incidents in which a Link Cam has broken at one of the thin joining links to trust stressing it in a horizontal placement. Plus the depth of the the unit may interfere with shallow horizontals. Link cams may have their uses in vertical parallel-sided granite or sandstone cracks but are really not a good idea for the Gunks.
Thank you. I am trying to build a logical rack based on what I already have. I find that with a mix of borrowed gear I spend a lot of time finding that one piece.

I have blue/purple/green Dragons (got them as a birthday present). That drives my choice of cams for full set. Aliens apparently a must-have in the Gunks, so I will get a partial set to overlap with Dragons. I already own a purple link cam (also a present) and two small-size Splitter cams, so I'll use them as additional doubles on harder routes.

I also already bought a full set of Huevos. Did not think much about the shape, but it makes sense. Too late, guess will upgrade when these retire. Maybe will add a set of grooved/offset nuts when I have spare cash.
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

Have fun with the transition. The Gunks looks like it has absolutely crazy good stuff in the moderate range. You should have a blast working through the grades.

SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10
Jon Clark wrote: Most, but certainly not all Gunks routes 5.11 and up are complicated to protect (as an onsight) and generally terrifying.
Hmm. I did very few climbs in that range, so I am biased. The two 5.12s were ok once I figured out the placements. The only 5.11d I did onsight was a boulder problem start and it took good gear at 8-9 feet where the hard moves were (even with me fumbling that cam).

On TR/following I did not find Gunks to be graded hard movement-wise. The falls look mostly clean on hard routes. It is very bouldery, so maybe scary on lead.

At low grades there are some random issues. I led Laurel this Sunday. Polished and sketchy at the bottom (for a 5.7). My problem came at the top - I do not own big cams and had to run it out 15-20 feet out through the fist-jam section.
MorganH · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 197

My most confident trad-leading friends started aid climbing big walls before they got into free climbing. I find their trust in somewhat marginal gear pretty impressive. If you're bored this winter when the weather is shut down, you could go suffer on some solo-aid projects.

In the long run, you'll probably always have a small gap, simply because it takes more energy to hang and place gear than it does to clip a rope through generally pre-placed draws.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Since you'll be doing this at the Gunks, it's necessary to talk about sport psychology for a minute.

In many of these old school areas, especially ones that have a reputation for stiff grades, it's easy to climb easy stuff and think you're great. I fell into this trap myself. I learned at Vedauwoo and all I ever wanted to was climb 5.9. Once I'd achieved that, I stayed in that rut for quite a while until I met people who challenged me. I've climbed at the Gunks, it's not sandbagged by much if at all. Maybe 2 letter grades different than a modern sport area. It's not enough to get all hot and bothered by.

You really need to consciously avoid thinking that you're good enough, ever. Find harder and harder routes. Consider yourself a 5.13 climber until you climb one, then consider yourself a 5.14 climber. You have to dangle your own carrot. The cool thing about doing this in the Gunks is that you won't even have to learn to climb cracks. Soon enough it all becomes climbing and you won't hardly register a difference between clipping bolts and placing widgets.

Jon Clark · · Planet Earth · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 1,153
SXL wrote: Hmm. I did very few climbs in that range, so I am biased. The two 5.12s were ok once I figured out the placements. The only 5.11d I did onsight was a boulder problem start and it took good gear at 8-9 feet where the hard moves were (even with me fumbling that cam). On TR/following I did not find Gunks to be graded hard movement-wise. The falls look mostly clean on hard routes. It is very bouldery, so maybe scary on lead. At low grades there are some random issues. I led Laurel this Sunday. Polished and sketchy at the bottom (for a 5.7). My problem came at the top - I do not own big cams and had to run it out 15-20 feet out through the fist-jam section.
You figured out the placements on TR or onsight lead?

I think the Gunks is on par with other traditionally graded areas. I agree that the cruxes tend to be boulder problems. My point wasn't so much about grades, but that I've frequently found the protection strenuous or difficult to place on the harder climbs. Dicking in small cams and RPs when I'm pumped always causes some consternation. The pro takes alot of work. If your placement skills aren't solid you'll be in deep shit. It sounds like you've got the climbing part down. To echo what others have said, work on the protection part of the game in a controlled and progressive fashion and you'll be fine.
SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10
Jon Clark wrote: You figured out the placements on TR or onsight lead? I think the Gunks is on par with other traditionally graded areas. I agree that the cruxes tend to be boulder problems. My point wasn't so much about grades, but that I've frequently found the protection strenuous or difficult to place on the harder climbs. Dicking in small cams and RPs when I'm pumped always causes some consternation. The pro takes alot of work. It sounds like you've got the climbing part down. To echo what others have said, work on the protection part of the game in a controlled and progressive fashion and you'll be fine.
On TR. I am sure to onsight these would have been a big deal. Especially when it takes a few minutes to select the properly sized cam/nut :)

On sport, I am slowly working my way through the grades too. My endurance is good, but I lack strength and power. Need to boulder more. My technique is ok, but technique is never good enough.

PS. I am saving Infinite Space for my first onsight trad 5.12. It looks stellar and the gear looks straight forward.
SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10
nicelegs wrote:Since you'll be doing this at the Gunks, it's necessary to talk about sport psychology for a minute. In many of these old school areas, especially ones that have a reputation for stiff grades, it's easy to climb easy stuff and think you're great.
I have only been climbing on gear for 6 months. Did my first gear climb in Eldorado canyon this spring.

Gunks has awesome 5.5s but also has rad 5.12s. For now, to keep in shape, I supplement my trad leading with bouldering and top-roping harder routes. Once I trust falling on gear, I will project something that will take time.

The US has so much good hard trad on such varied rock. Going to try Indian Creek the coming spring. Once I figure out the whole gear thing, I want to try a free big wall. No plans to stop.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

Flexibility is useful but perhaps overrated. More telling for places like the Gunks, where cracks can be irregular either in their general shape or in terms of their interior surfaces, is head width. I think the narrower the head the better---the cam will fit in more places. This is why, for example, WC Zeros are among the poorer choices for a Gunks small cam in spite of great flexibility---their relatively wide heads exclude them from places other cams will go.

One of the reasons tricams are popular is that their narrow head width makes it possible to get them places that no cam will fit. Their head depth is also less than a cam, so they will go into shallower placements. And they seem able to handle a little bit more flare than cams. Whether these advantages offset the difficulties of placement and removal and indeed whether the extra features matter much except in relatively rare cases is a matter of (raging) personal opinion.

So, if you have a choice of gear that you are buying, when it comes to cams compare head width for comparable sizes, because that's what will get you the most utility. Rock and Snow has already been recommended and I'd second it. The place is owned and staffed by local climbers, stocks gear that is useful, and has people who really know what they are talking about. You aren't going to get a comparable range of choices or anything like the expertise (unless you luck out) in an EMS, REI, or Paragon.

SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10

Everyone seems to express their beta in Camalot plus Alien equivalents. E.g. "first it's a purple camalot, then a green alien under the roof".

Rock and Snow. Indeed.

SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10

Now that I have a complete rack (also some credit card debt correlated to it). I also have a lot of questions.

-- Sling or harness racking? I have been using harness to rack all my gear, but sling IMO makes more sense except for really hard routes.

-- What is the general wisdom regarding racking my stoppers? Right now I put smaller stoppers on one biner, large ones on another and brass nuts separately since they are speciality pieces.

-- How about cams, do I rack them in order of size?

-- How do I get better at quickly selecting gear? I try to correlate sizes to my fingers/hands, but it seem to break down at the smaller and larger end of the spectrum. Also, even if I know what I want, it takes me an hour to find it on my rack.

-- Rope-side vs bolt side biners, does the same logic apply to trad draws? I thought of getting different biners for rope and "nut" end of the alpine draws.

-- How do I mark my gear so it does not get mixed up with my partners stuff? Right now it's easy, my stuff is shiny. I hope that will pass soon.

-- What knots do I need to know aside from figure 8? Seems like every trad climber knows tons of knots that I've never seen.

-- Cordalette, runner or rope for building anchors? My partner swears by using rope for anchors. I hear his arguments, but maybe i am missing something.

That's it for now :)

Christopher.D.Thomas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 150
SXL wrote:Now that I have a complete rack (also some credit card debt correlated to it). I also have a lot of questions. -- Sling or harness racking? I have been using harness to rack all my gear, but sling IMO makes more sense except for really hard routes. -- What is the general wisdom regarding racking my stoppers? Right now I put smaller stoppers on one biner, large ones on another and brass nuts separately since they are speciality pieces. -- How about cams, do I rack them in order of size? -- How do I get better at quickly selecting gear? I try to correlate sizes to my fingers/hands, but it seem to break down at the smaller and larger end of the spectrum. Also, even if I know what I want, it takes me an hour to find it on my rack. -- Rope-side vs bolt side biners, does the same logic apply to trad draws? I thought of getting different biners for rope and "nut" end of the alpine draws. -- How do I mark my gear so it does not get mixed up with my partners stuff? Right now it's easy, my stuff is shiny. I hope that will pass soon. -- What knots do I need to know aside from figure 8? Seems like every trad climber knows tons of knots that I've never seen. -- Cordalette, runner or rope for building anchors? My partner swears by using rope for anchors. I hear his arguments, but maybe i am missing something. That's it for now :)
I rack my cams on a metolious gear sling with multiple gear loops. I like it because it rides cross-wise on my chest high enough to stay out of the way of my legs when I step up. They're grouped by general sizes (small with smalls, mediums with mediums, etc). Duplicates obviously are grouped together. Since I use a combination of C3's and C4's, I try to keep them apart since the color codes are similar. I also rack all my cams using neutrino rack-pack biners that match the cam color. Bigger cams go up high so they don't hang low. All my stoppers go on one biner so that I can quickly try multiple sizes off of one grab, and I try to keep them in size order on the biner.

My alpine draws are racked on my harness. Unless I know specifically that a route requires a lot of grabbing draws from one side or another, I split my draws on either side of my harness. As for the orientations/shapes of biners is concerned, I haven't seen a lot of discussion on using different styles of biners on opposite ends of alpine draws. I'm not 100% certain but I think the dynamic is different when you're talking about clipping bolts versus trad protection. Back-clipping and z-clipping are still your primary concern. I've seen people tear down quick draws and use both pieces with longer runners for economy sake, but that was because they were cheap.

Anchor materials, belay devices and rescue stuff goes on the back sets of gear loops if there is more than one loop per side of the harness because I don't want to be fishing around for draws and have to sort through all the other stuff I need immediately on the route.

In general I prefer cordalette anchors unless there is some special case that I'm already aware of before climbing the route (extra-large sizes of runners required for the anchors, etc). I'll carry two loops so that I can lead with one while my partner belays from the anchor with the other tied up in the anchor. Sections of webbing are also useful as bail anchors and extra-long anchor legs. It's not very heavy but it can eat up a lot of space on your harness.

The clove hitch is an excellent hitch to know for tying in to the anchor as a belayer. It's also good for using rope as part of the anchor. The figure-eight on a bight is also a good one to know for building two equalized loops on a single knot for anchor points.

The longer your climb and more specifically the longer your approach will dictate how economical you want to be on your gear. Depending on any one system alone can lead to failure though; if you don't bring anchor material because you're planning on using the rope and then find yourself out of rope at the belay, you're in trouble.

Get good at MacGuyvering anchor setups that are SERENE. It's about creativity as much as it is efficiency.

One way to solve the marking problem AND they shininess problem is to just use only your stuff if you have a full rack. Saves confusion. That being said, nail polish dots and colored tape are popular options. Both wear out and require re-touching from time to time.
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
SXL wrote:Sling or harness racking? I have been using harness to rack all my gear, but sling IMO makes more sense except for really hard routes.
This is primarily personal preference. I rack cams and nuts on a sling and quickdraws on my harness. A sling facilitates multipitch changeovers, not an issue in the Gunks, and is much better when offwidth climbing is encountered, also not an issue in the Gunks.

SXL wrote:What is the general wisdom regarding racking my stoppers? Right now I put smaller stoppers on one biner, large ones on another and brass nuts separately since they are speciality pieces.
Again, mostly personal preference. I prefer your method, because you get at the right gear most efficiently. Some people like to mix up the nuts so they don't lose every small nut if the drop the biner they are racked on. I think the answer to this problem is not to drop those biners.

SXL wrote:How about cams, do I rack them in order of size?
Yes. In the Gunks, I double up cams in sizes green Camalot and below to save weight and keep things more compact. On long multipitch routes, it is a little more efficient to have each cam racked on its own carabiner.

SXL wrote:How do I get better at quickly selecting gear? I try to correlate sizes to my fingers/hands, but it seem to break down at the smaller and larger end of the spectrum. Also, even if I know what I want, it takes me an hour to find it on my rack.
Mostly it is a matter of experience. But I mentioned somewhere in a thread here the bench vise winter exercise trick. Get a cheap bench vise (with smooth jaw plates) and use it as an adjustable crack to hone placement skills.

SXL wrote: Rope-side vs bolt side biners, does the same logic apply to trad draws? I thought of getting different biners for rope and "nut" end of the alpine draws.
It matters a lot less, if at all. If you take a lot of falls on wired nuts, you may get gouging in the nut-side carabiner that could make it a danger if used on the rope side. This hasn't really been a problem for me, but I don't fall much. I wouldn't really worry about it, but be sure to regularly inspect your gear for signs of gouging.

SXL wrote: How do I mark my gear so it does not get mixed up with my partners stuff? Right now it's easy, my stuff is shiny. I hope that will pass soon.
I think most people use colored tape. Nail polish on metal less so. Scratching initials even less.

SXL wrote: What knots do I need to know aside from figure 8? Seems like every trad climber knows tons of knots that I've never seen.
This could be contentious. I think the EDK for rapping, the clove hitch, sometimes combined with the alpine butterfly, for most anchoring tasks, the double fisherman's for tying rap slings and cordelettes, and the prussik (or one of its alternatives) for backing up raps, ascending ropes, and basic self-rescue technique. The Munter hitch will allow you to belay (if you have an appropriate locking biner) even if you drop your belay device. Perhaps I should add that knowing the ins and outs of the good old hip belay makes sense? In the self-rescue department, I'd add the Munter Mule, which is essential for tying off weighted lines that might later need to be unloaded. Of course, in many cases knowing these knots if of no use if you don't know how to use the in the associated situations.

SXL wrote:Cordalette, runner or rope for building anchors? My partner swears by using rope for anchors. I hear his arguments, but maybe i am missing something.
Another bone of contention, perhaps not much more than a matter of fashion. For a while, anything but a cordelette was heresy, but more recently the pendulum has swung back. Cordelettes have their uses, but I think for most climbing in which leads are shared, just using the rope is the optimal solution.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

I don't use a gear sling except for OWs and Chimneys anymore. If you are swinging leads with your partner, it's also nice to rack on a sling for efficiency. But you don't really need to go out of way and get a specialized gear loop. Just use a 24" pre-sewn gear sling or tied webbing.

I rack nuts on two ovals - very big and micros on one and mediums on the other, or you can do big ones on one and micros on other. This way if you drop it, you don't loose them all.

I rack cams in size order. Unless it's a hard redpoint and I know the order of the gear placed. Sometimes I rack very large cams on my back loops.

Only practice will make you good at selecting gear. In BD sizes hand sizes are #1 to #3 camalots, off-fingers (big fingers to ringlocks) are 0.5 an .75, and fingers are .3 and .4

Same biners on both ends of an alpine draw - just easier to clip gear.

A cordalette and a long 48" sling are good for anchors (I carry both depending on situation).

Clove hitch, double-fisherman (aka grapevine), water knot, bowline are good knots to know.

SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10

Thank you all, very useful stuff!

rgold wrote: Of course, in many cases knowing these knots if of no use if you don't know how to use the in the associated situations.
I will take it as a hint to do some reading on self-rescue type stuff:)
SXL · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 10

Couple more questions.

-- My partner thinks that I too reliant on passive pro. When I see a placement I will always reach for a nut first. He's concerned that I will never learn to place cams reliably. Should I be forcing myself to use cams more (now that I own them)?

-- What is the rule of thumb to extending placements? Is it better to err on the "extend too frequently" side? Is there a downside to extending a placement, like some issues with force redirection?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
SXL wrote:My partner thinks that I too reliant on passive pro. When I see a placement I will always reach for a nut first. He's concerned that I will never learn to place cams reliably. Should I be forcing myself to use cams more (now that I own them)?
Well that's a new one. You should be getting the best placements you can with the gear that you have. Do not "force" yourself to use anything other than what you think is best at that moment in that place. But get feedback on those placements. If you are placing good nuts then there is nothing more to be said. If you are placing bad nuts where a cam would be better, then you have a problem.

That said, there are plenty of places in the Gunks where cams are going to be the best piece, so over time you'll get the practice you need---the notion that you'll "never" learn to place cams reliably is silly.

SXL wrote:What is the rule of thumb to extending placements? Is it better to err on the "extend too frequently" side? Is there a downside to extending a placement, like some issues with force redirection?
I'd say it is better to err on the extension side. The most immediate downside is adding four feet to your fall, which could be bad if there is a ledge waiting for you, something that happens in the Gunks. There are places in which I've kept the draw short, climbed past, placed another piece, and then backed down and lengthened the originally short draw, but that can be a lot of work. One of the many things I like about half ropes is I can keep the draws short more of the time.

Longer draws will usually give less rope drag and be less likely to lift nuts and rotate cams. Perhaps they make the kind of freak carabiner-opening accidents we've heard of recently more likely. There will always be trade-offs.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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