Dry Tooling Ethics Question

I live in an area that has some pretty decent rock climbing areas but for some reason dry tooling is nearly non-existent. It is too warm here to get reliable ice in the winter so I am looking to find a close dry-tooling crag to make my 10+hour trips to ice better (i.e. get stronger to climb harder ice). I have been looking around and I found a place that might be suitable to dry tool on, the only problem is, it is part of the same band of rock that a well established rock climbing area shares. I realize that for the majority of climbers, dry-tooling on established rock routes is considered bad ethics. This cliff that I am looking at is separated from the rock climbing areas by a significant gully and is difficult to access. There is a trail to the rock climbing areas, but not this cliff. Upon a careful inspection of the rock and online forums and guidebooks, it does not appear as though it has, or has ever had, any rock route. Assuming that I am truthful about the location and if there really is no rock routes on this cliff, my question is the following:

1. If I do my due diligence to ensure that there are no established rock routes on this separate cliff, is it still poor ethics to dry tool on it since the rock is pretty decent and it shares the same general band of cliff as established rock climbing although by all accounts it is separated from the rock climbing areas?

Please keep the discourse civil. All responses will be carefully considered and evaluated. Well thought out responses utilizing reason, logic, and specific examples will receive the most consideration. Thanks.

Claim it?

The best parallel I can think of is the dry tooling wall at Exit 38/North Bend, WA. There are dozens of cliffs in this climbing area and for whatever reason this one was claimed or developed as a dry tooling one so its been accepted.

At least I'm pretty sure that is how it happened.

I like the idea of a dry tooling crag, but those don't pop up w/o a lot of outcry and arguing. I'd be pretty hesitant to be the one to start dry tooling on decent rock near a well established rock climbing area, especially if that rock could serve as an expansion any time in the future. Any chance of finding a choss pile? One you know will never hold good climbing?

if it's good quality rock I would personally leave it for rock climbing. there's enough chossy cliffs out there perfect for dry tooling.

Choss pile's are the one thing that we seem to have in abundance, more than enough to go around. From an environmental perspective, I am not sure that indiscriminately bolting piles of rotten rock constitutes better ethics. From a safety perspective, I'm not very keen on pulling basketball size boulders off on my head or that of my belayer, as the choss we have around here is TERRIBLE. This cliff is close and has good enough rock that I think a decent cleaning could provide solid enough rock to be safe.
I can be convinced that it is poor ethics, or that it would create enough of an outcry that in the end it isn't worth it and I need to go back to the drawing board. Thanks, keep the comments coming.

Dave Cummings wrote:You joined MP with this account the day your wrote this post so clearly you know this would be problem in your area. I feel that no ice means no dry tooling personally. That being said I think the only exceptions are routes that are so blank they would only go on tools. With the next generation pushing things so much who is to say what is possible in the future when the right person comes along. I would say make a trip to CO and get your fill and leave your home cliffs to rock climbing.

Not enitrely correct pre requisite for a face to be super blank to go on tools. Aide maybe. Best dry tool routes are riddled with micro cracks and ledges. A little vegetation and diry corners are always welcome in moderate dry tooling. Short, vertical choss faces are perfect for training. Some seepage makes for nice partially frozen dirt. I would not wory so much about future generations. I disagree about going big on aide from getgo. Aid can be very very time consuming if you don't know what you are doing. If you think you will be decking on single pitch aide you probably saw too many Hardmen movies from ElCap where they perform areal dancing and pendulums over abyss. Single pitch aide is how you learn. Find a choss crag, clean it up, make it your training tool, bring friends to train too! Beore you know it, prices of ice pics will sky rocket in your neck of the woods.

Just bolt that sh*t and tool the hell out of it first come first serve plenty of rock out there for all.

Anyway who the hell gets to say how you climb anyway?

Most of the dry tooling crags that I got to see in France were relatively short overhanging walls or caves that would not have merited as rock climbing destinations. Difficult to say yes or no to your question as there are too many unknown factors including the size of the local climbing community, how many other people would use it as a dry tooling crag, etc.

From a purely training perspective I ended up building a dry-tooling wall out of plywood and wooden strips in my back garden. I attached it to a tree and used that for laps (with wrist and ankle weights). The neighbors gave me strange looks (it was 16 foot tall), but I did not have anyone getting on my case for destroying a potential rock crag.

I think it comes down to what's the crag best suited for. If it's steep and would make better drytooling routes than sport routes, go for it. But if what you're bolting makes for crappy drytooling routes that you climb once and then forget about, just make yourself a plice in your backyard like Rui suggested.

Remember that some of the best sport crags start out as seeming piles before they are trundled and cleaned up

Here is a try tooling spot in France, including neon purple paint indicating the drilled pick placements.

tvmountain.com/video/escala…

If it's a good quality rock and walls are say 30' and longer, leave it alone for potential future expansion of the current rock climbing area.

Like others have said, travel around and see other climbing areas. What you consider choss may actually be pretty decent after real good cleaning even for rock climbing. You'd be better off cleaning and bolting the rock that you refer to as "abundant choss". You just need to invest more time into cleaning and maybe glueing...

Have you contacted the local crag development group? If you do right by them, nobody has any right to bitch. (IMO)

Patrick Shyvers wrote:Have you contacted the local crag development group? If you do right by them, nobody has any right to bitch. (IMO)

"local crag development group" - haha, that's cute.

If no one's been up there yet, I say bolt it and let the dry tooling begin! Leave it for future rock climbing expansion? How long has it been there waiting for that?

It's good you are giving it some thought. You are on the right track. I think you know the answer to your question. If you choose to bolt, haters will hate. Keep your chin up and don't fall victim to their self doubt. Dry tooling is super fun and has it's place in climbing (it was just in the Olympics as an exhibition sport). Unfortunately, many folks in our tribe (climbers) don't understand it, and thus fear it, and thus hate on it.
If you do a good job on the crag, people will come and enjoy it. Happy bolting! We need more drytooling crags!
If you'd like some beta on developing a dry tooling crag, feel free to message me, and I'd be glad to share my experiences and connect you with others whom are also very experienced.

wanted to comment but didn't read all the posts so somebody might have already said this, sorry if so. If you found a new spot that looks fairly rad for any type of climbing talk to a local bout devolopment of what u got, and want to do. shit man it prob ain't even new ask around, your goal being not too scartch or ruin rock in order too practice for your other adventures. didn't see where this area was but don't b selfish, get some of the community involved rather than a bunch o folks that don't climb anywhere near u's opinion. my 2 scents

doligo wrote: "local crag development group" - haha, that's cute.

I don't follow. I don't know where OP lives, but many places have such a group.