YES! I do need more photos for the Cochise Guidebook
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Tim Lutz wrote:Fact: Jimbo should do a 'mea culpa' to Scott for dragging him and Tanya through the internet mud. Fact: Because relationships are more important than rock ethics. So why does Scott have to answer to Jimbo for his alledged transgressions? Are you like a trad God or something? If he sacrifies a fatted calf in your name does he get a case of beer and/or a handjob?Umm... It's not just him that's asking questions. Eric D wrote:Tim - It's not a question of person a vs. person b. It's a question of respecting widely accepted guidelines in the climbing community.This is more like it. |
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Years ago someone posted a photo that really summed the end result of my ethics vs your ethics in Arizona. |
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I could be convinced otherwise w some real evidence, but I'm pretty sure neither Jim nor anyone else ever said anything negative about Tanya, unless you count thread drift and asking polite questions about a timetable for completion of the guidebook as "dragging her through the Internet mud." |
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Thanks JQ. I think your opinion counts for more than anyone's since that's the way most of us AZ climbers feel. I think the 7 or 8 (and you know who you are) could learn from the old saying. It's better to let others think you're an ass than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Tanya was asking for pictures. That's it. If you have some pictures to offer her then send them. Otherwise, just move along. |
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Is that photo going in the guidebook? |
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Mike Diesen wrote:Thanks JQ. I think your opinion counts for more than anyone's since that's the way most of us AZ climbers feel. I think the 7 or 8 (and you know who you are) could learn from the old saying. It's better to let others think you're an ass than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Tanya was asking for pictures. That's it. If you have some pictures to offer her then send them. Otherwise, just move along.It's not often Mike and I agree on things, but this is definitely an exception. |
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I am looking forward to buying the guidebook as it will undoubtedly contain many never before documented Scott Ayers' lines, which in my experience are excellent. I have Kerry's Backcountry Rockclimbing in Southern Arizona and Geir's Toofast Topos: 50 Multipitch Climbs In Cochise Stronghold. I see another guidebook and another voice as a welcome addition. |
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Jesus H Christ Russ, give it a rest. This thread was asking for Pictures. Do you have any? No. Then move along. We're all sick of these threads being hi-jacked with the same tired old stuff. |
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Yeah, we're a bunch of dysfunctional motherfuckers, but in the end, I mostly find the interplay of the personalities I've known in the Southern Arizona climbing world utterly fucking fascinating (and all this set in a primitive landscape of stunning beauty as a bonus). |
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Thank you Jimbo for the facts, Thank you Eric D for remembering climbers guidelines/ethics. Thank you JQ for realizing your opinion does not count. Thank you Hendrixson for your insight, but you seem to miss the point, "oh just by pass the bolts on the cracks, by pass the glued bolts". What am I supposed to do, sit by and see the Stronghold made bolt climber friendly by the least common denominator/bolts, chipping, ect. |
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Keep up the good work Scott. |
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It is difficult for me to envision Cochise in any form other than how it exists today. For the entirety of my experience the routes in question have been there. It is easy for me to suggest skipping a bolt since in my experience that bolt has always been there. Likewise I would likely be angry if the routes I enjoy were altered. The trouble is that the experience I know and seek to preserve came twenty or thirty years after the one Peter Noebels and others fell in love with. |
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brian benedon wrote:The truth is I don't know much of whats been done in Cochise. I do know that this is not a perfect world, people are not perfect, they make mistakes, I know I have regrets. I also know that you can not please everybody. I know I've spent atleast 60% of my 25 years climbing SA routes. They are among the best routes that I've climbed, I repeat them often. That's my opinion..... Thanks Scott! The number is that low because I spend much of my time climbing my own routes which I have kept secret in part because of unappreciative people such as those nay sayers on this post. I would guess that End Game gets climbed more times in one season than Day's or Poetry has ever been climbed. I've climbed Day's of future Past. I would never climb it again or recommend the route. I've climbed End Game 3 times and would climb it again. I would also guess that popular opinion would be for the new routes over the poorly protected, unmaintained old routes, that rarely get climbed, and that there are only a select few old butt-chapped hard-men, compared to many climbers that appreciate the hard work thats been done so that many can enjoy the beauty of Cochise. When I topped out on Day's, many years ago, there was no anchor. There was a death block rappel in the dark chasm. SA fixed the dangerous condition, only to have some f..., with very bad judgement CHOPP the well camouflaged anchor. I don't care who the f you think you are, but those kind of irresponsible and inconceivable acts are not ok. I would glue in the bolts too if I was dealing with that type of mentality. Scott does not make routes safe for himself ( he solos .11) Unlike our forefathers, SA goes back and fixes his poorly protected routes so the majority of climbers can have fun on them and go home to their loved ones......Again; community service. Keep up the good work Scott. Love, BrianBrian, I think few people here would argue argue about a good new rap anchor. I have actually placed some of these myself, and likewise they were chopped. Likewise, I think few people would argue an FA retrofitting routes that he or she established, with the caveat the rest of the FA party were involved in the decision. However, since it appears as if I am one of the "butt-chapped hard men" you mentioned, I will respond that adding bolts to (or right next to) other people's routes is a legitimate concern. Likewise, manufactured holds are a legitimate concern. To condone these actions directly or indirectly seems to instigate controversy. Hendrixson wrote:It is difficult for me to envision Cochise in any form other than how it exists today. For the entirety of my experience the routes in question have been there. It is easy for me to suggest skipping a bolt since in my experience that bolt has always been there. Likewise I would likely be angry if the routes I enjoy were altered. The trouble is that the experience I know and seek to preserve came twenty or thirty years after the one Peter Noebels and others fell in love with. With the passage of time more and more users will come to know Cochise as it is not as it was. Those people like myself will then want to preserve their experience. I offer no solution but I am left with a deeper sympathy for those like Peter Noebels who are trying to restore the experience they love. I don't necessarily agree with it but I do respect it.Thanks John, nice post. |
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J Q wrote: because my head is not in a metaphorical elephants ass, then I guess my opinion doesn't count. Peter Noebels wrote: Thank you JQ for realizing your opinion does not count. .Thanks for admitting that your head is in a metaphorical elephants ass. Now we are both better for the experience and I hope we both learned something! |
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Man-up and start your our forum. Give Tanya back her post. |
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Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. |
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I have a lot of other interests besides climbing. I like to shoot, 4 x 4, build campers, fix cars, weld and wood work. I spend time on other site forums to get information about the particular activity I'm working on at the time and discuss solutions. Although there are disagreements, for the most part, on these sites, they are respectful of each other. Mountain Project is a trash site. The only thing I really need to say to the few on here that have ruined MP is you really need to get over Scott. |
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Tim, |
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2 or 3 of the best cracks I have ever done(think granite finger cracks) were made possible by aid chippers/rock vandals. I don't hate on them. |
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