"shoulder season" warm layer geek-out

Nick Votto wrote: Haha I love that you're still wearing your helmet and goggles in the car...I've done that after many long and hard days!

Just so there's no confusion, that is most assuredly not me in the video.

Optimistic wrote: Can you say a little more about the Ether? Looks like really good wind protection, but is it warm? Too warm?

It's basically a hooded dri-clime which is one of the best selling pieces out there. The nylon shell is basically a wind shirt and then you've go the micro-fleece liner. I wouldn't say it's too warm, but since there is a nylon shell something like the R1 / Cap 4 will breath different. But then you have the wind blocking properties which when it's windy ups the merits of a piece like this. I'm a huge fan of the marmot dri-clime and I've been waiting for some variant of the hooded version to be re-introduced. It is a light nylon however so climbing chimneys is out. I use mine for cool days on the belay, as a alpine jacket for the summer months, jacket for summer snow climbs or backpacking etc. Another option though would be the R1 / Cap 3 /4 with a windshirt to get the same effect. Honestly though I'd probably use of of the patagonia shirts and throw this in my bag as it packs down light enough. The shell is somewhat water repellent and is going to dry faster than the R1.

Runs small though. I had to step up to an XL. (5 9", 185 husky). I recommend it and I always have to take it back from the GF.

mattm wrote:I have nearly all the pieces you've mentioned (and then some) Piton is very versatile but in the hoody version the windpro panels are pretty limited. The Jacket version actually provides more wind protection and is what I opted for. It seems to me to be SLIGHTLY less bulky than an R1 Hoody and about equal in warmth. If the wind really gets going the R1 will feel colder but the Piton won't block it all either. OF these two I prefer the Piton, especially as the smooth outer face fabrics hold up better to rock wear and tear. Skip the Arcteryx Fortrez and Konseal. They're nice pieces but light and WAAY too $$ for what you get. Cap 4 Hoody is very nice and probably a tier above the R1 for most uses. Note though that it's WAY more air permeable and you'll loose a lot of heat to any wind thus requiring a windshell (Houdini etc) If you run cold the R1 might win here. I run warm and prefer the Cap4 Marmot DriClme Ether (or Rab VapourRise Lite) These always are the dark horses. The masses don't seem to buy into the style (light, lined wind shirt/shell) even though they're really one of the original "soft shell" concepts. Most consider the warmth on par with 200WT fleece give or take (I usually say a TAD less warm) These pieces have been my typical favorites for cool and windy weather climbing for more than a decade. Nicely breathable, somewhat light and wind cutting. The two dings I give against these pieces are when the temps get truly cold, they simply don't have the heft to keep you warm and the outer shell is not as durable to rock wear and thrashing as a fleece would be (Keep this in mind as the same is true for a Houdini shell or the like) Now, I will say I've pounded on my DriClime pretty hard and it's done well. I credit this to the looseness of the outer shell. It's not "tight" like a puffy shell and tends to move and slide a lot more. This keeps the snagging and pulling down a lot. I'd give the Driclime shell a notch or two more durability than a Houdini (which I have not beaten as much to test) RE colder temps - If the mercury is dropping I will climb in my DriClime and then throw on a puffy at the belay or ground (MicroPuff, Atom LT, Access LT etc ) All that said, these days with true, cold weather climbing like you indicate (40s and down) the FULL WindPro hard face fleeces have caught my attention. Rab Shadow, BD Tangent, WT WindPro and that Melanzana Hoody all fit the same space. The WindPro doesn't breath as well but it's at least as warm as the R1 with wind protection and abrasion resistance. I like it from my limited use. I'd look at either the full WindPro or DriClime with Puffy options depending on your budget and how versatile you want to to be. WindPro will match colder conditions "better"but the combo setup will likely cover a broader range. If you're leaning more the Cap4 / R1 route consider a ultralight softshell wind piece in lieu of the Houdini. Pieces like the BD Alpine Start or Rab Boreas are a better choice IMO.

Wow, you've got a serious knowledge base there! Do you own a gear store or something?

I actually really like the look of that Wild Things Wind Pro, although it's a little heavier than I was picturing, at 18oz. Also they are reorganizing their factory and not accepting orders until Thanksgiving...

R1 sure does have a fan base though, including lucander who likes it for the place I'll be using it most.

Optimistic wrote: Wow, you've got a serious knowledge base there! Do you own a gear store or something? I actually really like the look of that Wild Things Wind Pro, although it's a little heavier than I was picturing, at 18oz. Also they are reorganizing their factory and not accepting orders until Thanksgiving... R1 sure does have a fan base though, including lucander who likes it for the place I'll be using it most.

Ha - If you ask my wife she'll A) Agree with you that I have a gear store in my closet/garage B) Tell you I have an issue requiring intervention.

I tell her I could have a lot of vices - Gear Whore is a pretty good one...

The WindPro stuff is nice but bulkier than other fleece options. If you like that WT one, RAB makes one called the Shadow that is in the same vein. Sierra Trading post has size LG right now and with coupons you can get it for $88ish with a deal flyer.

IMO, if you're looking at PRIMARILY a cold weather cragging piece for the Gunks (lived in PTown most of my life) the WindPro is better. You can put it on, climb and not futz with needing a wind layer when you get up above the trees. Often, I've been in an R1 with little wind at the base and then you get up high and boom, wind cuts through. Now you have to mess around with a shell too.

If you're looking for broader versatility I'd lean towards an R1 type thing with a soft-shell outer for wind.
The windpro won't breath as well for higher activity rates.

High End you go straight R1 and something like a Boreas or Alpine Start

Frugal you can honestly get away with any midweight fleece (R1 is nice but not mission critical) and light windshell.

Re: R1 vs. Piton

Both of these have been brought up, and both match your requirements quite well, especially when pair with some base layers and a wind shell. My go-to system for chilly multipitch in Eldo last winter was a lightweight sythetic t-shirt (~Cap 1 weight), one or two mid/light weight long sleeves (~Cap 2 weight), a Piton Hoody, and a Houdini. By mixing and matching within this system, I could cover pretty much the entire range of conditions, short of blizzard. When cragging, a light puffy is nice too.

Anyway, R1 vs. Piton. R1 is less wind proof, but provides greater coverage. It is longer in the torso, and has longer sleeves with thumb holes. On me, the R1 felt a tad baggy. Piton has a slimmer fit and shorter sleeves, no thumb loops. Piton material is a bit sturdier, and a bit more wind resistant, but for either you'll want a wind shell on top if it is really windy. The R1 hood is more balaclava-like, with an offset zipper, while the Piton hood has less face/chin/mouth coverage and a centered zipper. I prefer the Piton fit for rock climbing; the long sleeves and thumb loops of the R1 was just a bit too much material around my wrists.

Overall, I think that the R1 is a better choice as a base/mid layer in cold conditions, such as under a shell when ice climbing. The Piton is, in my opinion, the better choice for chilly-weather rock climbing, where you'll likely be wearing it by itself or with a light windshell.

Are the R1 and the Piton compressible enough that people clip them onto their harnesses, or are they too bulky for that? Seems like the cap 4 would shine in that regard, and one of those wind pro things would not be able to do that by a long shot.

Optimistic wrote:Are the R1 and the Piton compressible enough that people clip them onto their harnesses, or are they too bulky for that? Seems like the cap 4 would shine in that regard, and one of those wind pro things would not be able to do that by a long shot.

Honestly, none of the fleece pieces will get that small. You might get away with it for a Cap4 but there's no built in stuff pocket if that gives you an idea of intended use

Harness clip able will be things like a Houdini, Alpine Start etc

Now, with you asking about that feature I think you should give a hard look at DriClime or Rab Vapour Rise stuff (Montane has one called the Rock Guide but not available in USA from what I can tell). Might be your goldilocks piece. Often you'll see them called the "Pile and Pertex" combo after the micro pile liner and Pertex shell found on many. They're awesome pieces that don't see a lot of massive change in their segment. Might tell you something about their effectiveness. I have a Marmot DriClime Windshirt from 1999 that still sees use each season. Marmot still makes that exact piece. Rab's been doing the Vapour Rise forever as well. Certain things just "work" and as such companies make them year after year without a lot of fanfare or change - They don't need to as they sell each year.

There's a metric TON of discussions over on BPL re fleece vs P&P setups. They slant towards hiking but you'll get more info than you thought possible over there.

I get good mileage from a 2004 LL Bean Windstopper fleece jacket. The fleece is surprisingly thin, and it even has non-Windblock stretchy panels over about 1/3rd of the surface. It keeps me dry in mild rain, breathes like crazy, doesn't soak up a ton of water... it's a very early soft shell of sorts, and makes a good argument in their favor. It's been usable in a ridiculously broad range of temperatures and weather conditions. It's off during aerobic work in the fall & spring, on during aerobic work in the winter. Absolutely perfect.

I've got an R1 Hoody and a Wild Things WindPro Hoody. I wear the Wild Things Hoody daily because it is a lot warmer and feels better to wear around town.

I wear my R1 Hoody exclusively while climbing and I haven't found anything that can remotely beat the R1Hoody in terms of breathability and warmth. I've yet to find a better hood on any other garment. Period. I love my R1 Hoody.

That being said, I wouldn't wear my R1 Hoody out around town because it fits slim and when your not wearing the hood, it looks really weird.

The hood on the Wild Things Hoody is atrocious. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this before. I love the fact that Wild Things is American made here on the East Coast, but they REALLY need to re-think they're hood design. It's too tight, the elastic border is uncomfortable to say the least and the zipper zipped all the way up, chokes me out. Besides that, it's a great fleece from the shoulders down. I love the WindPro material - It's definitely not windproof though, so keep that in mind. I'd say it successfully blocks 65-75 percent of the wind.

Hope this helps a bit.

mattm wrote: Honestly, none of the fleece pieces will get that small. You might get away with it for a Cap4 but there's no built in stuff pocket if that gives you an idea of intended use Harness clip able will be things like a Houdini, Alpine Start etc Now, with you asking about that feature I think you should give a hard look at DriClime or Rab Vapour Rise stuff (Montane has one called the Rock Guide but not available in USA from what I can tell). Might be your goldilocks piece. Often you'll see them called the "Pile and Pertex" combo after the micro pile liner and Pertex shell found on many. They're awesome pieces that don't see a lot of massive change in their segment. Might tell you something about their effectiveness. I have a Marmot DriClime Windshirt from 1999 that still sees use each season. Marmot still makes that exact piece. Rab's been doing the Vapour Rise forever as well. Certain things just "work" and as such companies make them year after year without a lot of fanfare or change - They don't need to as they sell each year. There's a metric TON of discussions over on BPL re fleece vs P&P setups. They slant towards hiking but you'll get more info than you thought possible over there.

Matt, do you know about this "Schoeller stretch-woven nylon" that is the shell of the Alpine Start? Is that a fairly abrasion-resistant material, or pretty delicate? Windproof?

Christopher G wrote:I've got an R1 Hoody and a Wild Things WindPro Hoody. I wear the Wild Things Hoody daily because it is a lot warmer and feels better to wear around town. I wear my R1 Hoody exclusively while climbing and I haven't found anything that can remotely beat the R1Hoody in terms of breathability and warmth. I've yet to find a better hood on any other garment. Period. I love my R1 Hoody. That being said, I wouldn't wear my R1 Hoody out around town because it fits slim and when your not wearing the hood, it looks really weird. The hood on the Wild Things Hoody is atrocious. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this before. I love the fact that Wild Things is American made here on the East Coast, but they REALLY need to re-think they're hood design. It's too tight, the elastic border is uncomfortable to say the least and the zipper zipped all the way up, chokes me out. Besides that, it's a great fleece from the shoulders down. I love the WindPro material - It's definitely not windproof though, so keep that in mind. I'd say it successfully blocks 65-75 percent of the wind. Hope this helps a bit.

That's good beta on the WindPro hood, because the hood is basically the whole point of why I'm wanting this jacket, whatever it ends up being.

Christopher G wrote:I've got an R1 Hoody and a Wild Things WindPro Hoody. I wear the Wild Things Hoody daily because it is a lot warmer and feels better to wear around town. I wear my R1 Hoody exclusively while climbing and I haven't found anything that can remotely beat the R1Hoody in terms of breathability and warmth. I've yet to find a better hood on any other garment. Period. I love my R1 Hoody. That being said, I wouldn't wear my R1 Hoody out around town because it fits slim and when your not wearing the hood, it looks really weird. The hood on the Wild Things Hoody is atrocious. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this before. I love the fact that Wild Things is American made here on the East Coast, but they REALLY need to re-think they're hood design. It's too tight, the elastic border is uncomfortable to say the least and the zipper zipped all the way up, chokes me out. Besides that, it's a great fleece from the shoulders down. I love the WindPro material - It's definitely not windproof though, so keep that in mind. I'd say it successfully blocks 65-75 percent of the wind. Hope this helps a bit.

Wild things changed quite a bit. They were consumer goods, then went straight up military, then back to consumer. I think they are still trying to figure out materials, fit etc. Not really the same WT from days of old, but they are working on it.

Christopher G wrote:but they REALLY need to re-think they're hood design. It's too tight, the elastic border is uncomfortable to say the least and the zipper zipped all the way up, chokes me out. Besides that, it's a great fleece from the shoulders down. I love the WindPro material - It's definitely not windproof though, so keep that in mind.

Interesante.

I actually prefer the hood on the WT; I don't think it's all that constrictive - and I've got a super fat noggin.

The balaclava style hood is OK on the R1, but it seems to get in the way of a helmet chin strap if not zipped all the way yet when zipped all the way with a helmet chin strap is no long really a balaclava - again I have a fat noggin so YMMV.

Two other options the OP should investigate would be the radiant hybrid from OR and the Trail Action "parka" from Mont Bell.

The Mont Bell piece is IMO a pretty good intermediate between the Wind Pro fabric and the power dry material of the R1 in terms of wind resistance versus breathability. It's also super cheap ($80) but is cut a bit on the short side.

With all of this said; the Cap 4 hoody is my go to for alpine or ski mo. I prefer layering over/under it more than a thicker mid layer - I love that layer. Cool weather cragging will be with the WT.

Optimistic wrote:Are the R1 and the Piton compressible enough that people clip them onto their harnesses, or are they too bulky for that? Seems like the cap 4 would shine in that regard, and one of those wind pro things would not be able to do that by a long shot.

It is sort of the opposite, the Cap 4 shines because it can be worn in a wide range of temps and exertion levels, so you don't have to take it on and off all the time. I am either wearing it or stuffing it in a pack, so when I bring it, I plan to wear it most of the time. If it is too hot to climb in a fleece, I will wear lighter weight layers. I usually carry a clippable light shell or puffy to use at belays or if temps cool off.

The wind pro is probably great if it is cold and windy enough that you want to wear it for most of the route (while climbing). If it is warmer and you need back up warmth, there are probably better options.

Dave Bn wrote: Interesante. I actually prefer the hood on the WT; I don't think it's all that constrictive - and I've got a super fat noggin. The balaclava style hood is OK on the R1, but it seems to get in the way of a helmet chin strap if not zipped all the way yet when zipped all the way with a helmet chin strap is no long really a balaclava - again I have a fat noggin so YMMV. Two other options the OP should investigate would be the radiant hybrid from OR and the Trail Action "parka" from Mont Bell. The Mont Bell piece is IMO a pretty good intermediate between the Wind Pro fabric and the power dry material of the R1 in terms of wind resistance versus breathability. It's also super cheap ($80) but is cut a bit on the short side. With all of this said; the Cap 4 hoody is my go to for alpine or ski mo. I prefer layering over/under it more than a thicker mid layer - I love that layer. Cool weather cragging will be with the WT.

That Montbell does seem like a mighty good deal! And you think it's warmer than the R1? Intriguing... For those that want to see it: montbell.us/products/disp.p…

But you find that most of the time you end up wanting the Cap 4 instead of the heavier layers because you get too warm when you're moving?

Optimistic wrote: That Montbell does seem like a mighty good deal! And you think it's warmer than the R1? Intriguing... For those that want to see it: montbell.us/products/disp.p… But you find that most of the time you end up wanting the Cap 4 instead of the heavier layers because you get too warm when you're moving?

I'd say equally as warm as the R1 but with a touch of wind resistance, full zip and hand pockets (i.e. ventilation) - although no thumb loops and a slightly less form-fitting hood.

And yeah, Cap 4 for long approaches or uphill skins. I sweat like a pig so I like to be able to add layers as needed instead of swelter in a t-shirt and a mid/heavy-weight fleece.

For example a mid-winter skin layering system is typically a thin l/s shirt, Cap 4, thin soft shell and then a gore pac lite shell to go over all of that if it gets really bad.

Again though, cool season craggin is usually a t-shirt, WT hoody and a puffy.

Scott McMahon wrote: Wild things changed quite a bit. They were consumer goods, then went straight up military, then back to consumer. I think they are still trying to figure out materials, fit etc. Not really the same WT from days of old, but they are working on it.

Definitely man. You can tell when a company hasn't really found what they're looking for when they completely revamp their product line almost yearly. I love Wild Things, always have. It just makes me feel better when I know I bought something hand-crafted here in the homeland.

I read their website and they are going to dabble in custom alpine packs. That's where its at! I've been wishing for years pack companies would allow us, the end user, to design an alpine pack the way we want/need it.

The only thing Wild Things needs to get right next is their product weights. They make good shit, but man is it heavy compared to a lot of the stuff Rab, Arc'teryx and even Mountain Hardwear has released as of late.

It'll be very interesting to see what they'll come up with to compete with some of the bigger brands.

Optimistic wrote: Matt, do you know about this "Schoeller stretch-woven nylon" that is the shell of the Alpine Start? Is that a fairly abrasion-resistant material, or pretty delicate? Windproof?

Does anyone have experience with this material? Sturdy?

Optimistic wrote: Does anyone have experience with this material? Sturdy?

Sorry - Missed This

It's a very light, single weave stretch softshell. There's no inner fleecy feeling. Very similar to a Rab Boreas.

I only have limited time with it right now so can't comment on longevity however I will say it's likely going to replace my Houdini as my rock wind shell. I love my Houdini but you could never thrash in the thing as you'd likely tear it up quickly. The Alpine Start material, while not quite as wind resistant from what I can tell, will take a lot more abuse than a Pertex style wind shell.

From the BPL review synopsis ; The future is now, and it has arrived in the form of the Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody; a windshirt which blends performance characteristics better than anything else, as far as I know. It feels quite unreasonable to ask any more of the 80 gram/meter Schoeller stretch woven fabric, which combines breathability, toughness, and weather resistance in an extraordinary fashion.

more here: Alpine Start Review

Honestly, here's what you should do - Find an Alpine Start on sale (clearance on spring '14 stuff going on) and then find something like an r1 or cap4 or equivalent regular fleece on sale as well. good to go

Hi all:

Just wanted to say what I actually ended up with, which was a Patagonia Cap 4 Hoody and a Rab Strata Hoody.

"Shoulder season" had turned nearly into plain old winter by the time I'd finished sifting through all of your recommendations and earning a lot of quizzical looks from my wife as to why this purchase was taking so consarned long, but from what I can tell so far this is a really great combination. I've used it for various hikes as well as some rock climbing, down to about 30 degrees, usually with a pair of some kind of polypro long johns under my pants.

The insulating power of a hood instead of a hat is really substantial, so just that has been a big improvement. All by itself the Cap 4 covers a lot of the ground I wanted to cover, between hood down and unzippped to hood zipped up covers you from about 45-60 when you're moving. Then the Strata does a great job at belays and in windy conditions down to just about any temp I'd be likely to rock climb in, the limit probably being about 35.

I haven't had the Strata on in the rain, can't comment on its performance in that situation.

The Cap 4 seems like it's going to be a totally key piece of gear for just about everything I do outdoors, really loving it.

The R1 seemed to me like it was going to be too warm for me when I was moving and not warm and windproof enough when I stopped. So far that's feeling right, because I wouldn't want the Cap 4 to be any warmer.

My only gripes:
-the helmet-compatible hood on the Strata looks a bit goofy around town without a helmet...but if it were smaller, obviously it wouldn't fit over a helmet, just something to be aware of in terms of what you're hoping to use it for...maybe not prom night.
-The Strata is a little bit bulky when stuffed into itself or tied around the waist, compared to what I'd imagined in my mind's eye. But everything that I looked at that seemed to stuff really tiny looked pretty delicate to me. The Strata seems sturdy, but still very light.
-the ribs on the Cap 4 make it a struggle to pull it on over any but the slickest fabrics. Definitely needs some tugging and rearranging to get all the bunches out of the shirt underneath it once you put it on, unless you're wearing a slippery synthetic shirt.

One other random comment, prior to getting the Strata I bought and returned (without climbing in it, obviously) a BD Access LT Hoody. There were a couple of things about it that made me return it that others might want to think about:
-very slick "satiny" finished outer material that looked to me like it would snag really easily on cam wires and vegetation and such, plus I felt like it gave off a Rocky Balboa kind of vibe, could be good depending on your goals
-Advertised as a "trim fit" which in my case added up to being quite snug in the shoulders and arms and having what seemed to me like a LOT of excess material around the waist. I could see it being tight in BOTH areas, but it seemed like the climber they had in mind had a "Hershey's kiss" kind of shape...YMMV.
-No hand warmer pockets. Some folks (eg Outdoorgearlab) make an impassioned defense (weight, simplicity, etc) of not having pockets on clothing that you'll be really moving in, but I was really surprised not to have them (that this was optional hadn't occurred to me!) and I was not psyched. The pockets on the Strata are super toasty and probably add about 4 grams to the weight of the jacket.

Hope some of that proves useful if you're on a similar shopping mission, and thanks to everyone who wrote in!