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Lowering off anchors, rehashhhh

tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

I think it best to haul up an extra line to rap while also being lowered. At IC it is probably best to top out and find a walk off to avoid these single pitch descent issues.

CCChanceR Ronemus · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 130

Okay. Do whatever you guys want at your crags. Well just be appreciating our "Bosch wielding philanthropists" and quietly and safely lowering. Maybe it's a "gym climber thing" but Steve House lowers. Members of the Petzl mixed team lower. Many top climbers learned in a gym, maybe it's time to start realizing sometimes these gym bred kids "get it" a little better than a lot of the old farts seem to.

tim · · Boulder, CO · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 507

Does mark twight lower?

CCChanceR Ronemus · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 130

Mark Twight floats. Irrelevant.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Em Cos wrote:Lowering is completely safe if you do it properly. Rapping is completely safe if you do it properly. What amazes me though, is that in the context of "what if you can't clearly communicate with your partner", so many people are advocating to default to lowering. If communication is good, either rapping or lowering is fine. If there is a miscommunication, rapping is clearly the safer choice. If I lower when my partner thinks I'm rapping, I could be killed. If I rap when my partner thinks I'm lowering, I'm still perfectly safe.
Yes. in the absence of clear communication both the belayer and the climber should default to the safest option. If the climber can't verify that they are being lowered by the belayer, I think it is better that they are in control of their own descent. Similarly, if the belayer can't confirm that the climber wants to come off belay and is going to rappel, they should keep the climber on belay. In the context of half rope length climbs with fixed anchors, I usually default to lowering, but in those cases it is abundantly clear what is happening.
JeffL · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 65

So often, the answer reverts to... IT DEPENDS. The OP started this argument in response to me pleading that people stop TRing and lowering through chains at Indian Creek. This is the land of vertical and soft sand stone. I'm not sure if anyone will argue that a rope with sand on it will wear through anchors, carabiners, and belay devices much more quickly.

Lowering biners at the top of every single climb would be the safest and most efficient way to allow lowering off with a quick an easy fix to replace the worn biners. A current problem is a lot of IC routes have chains on the bottom. How are WE going to replace them? I'm sure there's a way, but who is going to do it, and where is the money coming from?

I fear we are on a slippery slope if we refer to safety as why you should always do something. "Always and never rarely apply." Read the quotes again if it didn't make sense. If you can lead a 5.10 trad climb, but not safely rappel, something has gone wrong in the progression of your learning. I already see people running TR's directly through the chains so people who are learning can TR without having to make it to the top, or clean for that matter. Is this okay? What happens when it just becomes a convenience thing for us to TR through the chains so that our partners don't later have to clean it in the first place? Is this okay?

My point is that we must draw the line somewhere and take care stuff, even if it isn't ours. If you insist on lowering in the desert environment, consider donating money to Friends of Indian Creek, so that WE can continue to replace worn anchors. A friend of mine donates a dollar per pitch he does, and shit he takes in The Creek. A pretty nice gesture and a great help towards the sustainability of the place if you can afford it.

Oh and calling someone a n00b or whatever because they have a different opinion than you do? I'm not so sure about that one. Even if they are inexperienced and are doing something wrong, don't you think a better approach would be to educate them in a friendly way? I do.

I have capitalized the word WE to add emphasis to the fact that sustainability and replacing anchors is our problem. If instead of arguing something to death, we work on a solution to the problem, then there won't be as many bad anchors. Everybody wins!

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
JeffL wrote: A current problem is a lot of IC routes have chains on the bottom. How are WE going to replace them? I'm sure there's a way, but who is going to do it, and where is the money coming from?
You can always put fresh quick links or your retired biners at that bottom of the chains, if you don't want to invest in mussy hooks. ANYBODY CAN DO THIS.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
JeffL wrote:If you can lead a 5.10 trad climb, but not safely rappel, something has gone wrong in the progression of your learning.
A few years ago my partner and i encountered a sponsored climber around here on a route ... She could climb really hard and had even done a classic multi or two (grand wall 5.11a A0) but she couldnt remember how to rappel

She had done it before, but because its not something she practised all the time she couldnt remeber the proper sequence to safely execute it

I had to walk her through it and check her setup

Turns out she mostly sport climbed harder stuff where there were always lower offs, or at worst she could thread through ... Or boulderes ...No need to rap

Its like those folks who think you can just take a self rescue course it will make you "safe" and not practise those skills constantly

If you want to be fast and efficient, and "safe" on multi when you need to bail or on rap descents ... You need to practise those rapping skills over and over again

Just like anything else

Call me an AZN dino ... But i firmly believe that EVERY roped climber should be proficient and practised at rapping, especially if you moved beyond the crag

Now keep i mind i generally lower myself ... Unless rope soloing or theres poor communicatiob

;)
Aaron Nash · · North Bend, WA · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 212

Obviously, this is the only way to do it safe:

Finish your climb, crawl through, lower off.
No untying! Virtually impossible to wear out within your lifetime! Virtually indestructible!



Or rap. I don't give a shit. Just use your head and follow local ethics. Stop beating a dead horse and go do some stuff ffs...

Can I have the 15 minutes it took to read this back?
amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Aaron Nash wrote:Obviously, this is the only way to do it safe:
Where was this picture taken?
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Guy Keesee wrote:Mark Dixon.... I wish I had a photo. The top is nothing more than a regular bolt hanger with a chain about 6-7 inches long. Then a Rap Hanger is drilled so the eye is at the same level as the chain bottom. And its pretty small chain .... 10 mm rope just fits. (I own a lot of ropes and the "big beefy- hang dog special" is some sort of 9.8) The beauty of this set up is- nothing will wear out, you cant TR on this. Its sort of hard to pull the cord down, unless you walk off to the side and take some of the friction off of the RAP Hanger.
It sounds like he's setting up an intentional pain in the ass. He should stop doing that.
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145
Aaron Nash wrote:Obviously, this is the only way to do it safe: Finish your climb, crawl through, lower off. No untying! Virtually impossible to wear out within your lifetime! Virtually indestructible!
What about redundancy?????

How can you use any nonredundant anchor? What if Dottie the killer asteroid strikes? What about alien pulse rockets, ISIS uranium rounds, or even sharks with lasers???

How can you not account for the sharks?? Not the little piss ant sand suckers, but the monster Aussie great white pterydactl manbearpig killers!

And what about the manbearpig? I mean that's just one step away from the zombie apocalypse! That anchor won't save you.

5 pages of wtf & idgac!!
Vincent B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 15
...
Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256
redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
amarius wrote: Where was this picture taken?
Gotta love index
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
nicelegs wrote: It sounds like he's setting up an intentional pain in the ass. He should stop doing that.
Ha.... not a pain at all... works really nice, almost zero wear and tear.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Guy Keesee wrote: Ha.... not a pain at all... works really nice, almost zero wear and tear.
From your description, it sounds like one of Dante's layers of hell. Maybe a picture would do it more justice.
Tronald Dump · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

Shh, dont say the "I" word.

Robert Hall · · North Conway, NH · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 27,827

I think highlander forgot to say ..."tie a fig 8 knot in the bight (i.e. the loop that you've fed through the 'chains') and clip the loop of the knot...into the locking 'biner on your harnness." Then you can untie and still be on belay. This, of course, presupposes the anchor is large enough to get 2 strands of rope through it, sometimes not the case.

BUT- communication in is paramount. The "worst" (and I hear this too often for comfort) is the climber reaches the non-quick-feed "chains" and ties in with a sling intending to feed the rope and be lowered. He/she then says "Off Belay". WHY??? If the intention is to be lowered? Keep the belay "ON", even when tied in with a sling (or the aforementioned "bight-with-knot") if the intention is to be lowered. And if the intention is to rap, the belayer should double check that beforew actually taking the belay off.

On thing that no one's mentioned, even on multi pitch climbs, lowering the 1st person down (instead of both rapping) can often be a help in high winds, and/or when you're not too sure exactly where the next anchor is.

A second thing, although usually trivial with solid anchors, is that when lowering the weight of both the climber and the belayer is on the anchor, while in rapping only the climber's weight is on the anchor. It's sort of counter-intuitive, but I've seen the physics of the mathematics (or the mathematics of the physics).

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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