How do I narrow the sport-trad gap?

Some good beta from Chris on the finer points of traditional rock climbing:

roconista.wordpress.com/201…

You need to learn and train to place gear to make it possible for you to climb hard trad. In sport climbing, somebody else did that for you.

Being scared shitless is your brain telling you that this is a different skill that you're not competent in yet. Aren't brains wonderful!

Learn to place gear that you know will hold the fall that could possibly happen. Back it up, nobody is infallible.

Don't climb above pieces you don't trust. Mixing the law of Murphy and the law of gravity makes for a very sad day.

Place as much gear as you want/can. That's not being a wimp -- that's being smart and making it possible to climb another day and continue to learn.

Visualize where your next stance and gear could be; know your gear is good and go. That could be 3 feet away, 10, or more, but don't pass up the opportunity to put in a great piece (this isn't sport climbing !).

I have only been at the Gunks for two days. But RGold is right, there's load of fun to be had below 5.10.

So have fun.

Following leaders that climb harder than you, analyzing their placements and watching them fall is good also. Having a belayer that you trust and are comfortable with goes a long way too.

Other than all the advice given, once you learn how to confidently place gear, just get on harder routes and take some falls. Most tens are clean falls anyway. Stick with the G & PG climbs at first.

SXL wrote: How do I work a route if I can't fall? I think if the route is well protected, the gear well placed, I should be ok falling on it. I will not take victory whippers, but if the route is hard enough, I might fall. PS. placing gear quickly is another action point

Absolutely. You will fall. You just want to make sure that when you do (since it may happen without you planning it), you've got good gear. That comes through practice. I think the primary point I was trying to make is that the notion that you'll learn to set gear by test falling on it strikes me as really cavalier. If your "test" reveals that you've placed gear poorly, you've got problems, possibly really bad ones.

Also, disavow yourself of the notion that you need to fall to work routes. This is an extreme example, but do you think people work Bacher-Yerian by lobbing off it? Working the moves also means climbing up and reversing them until you feel more comfortable with them. If you're on a finger crack with bomber gear, lob away. But if it's runout, tiny gear, etc., you'll want a more cautious approach. Like Thierry said, fear is a good touchstone for how confident you should be.

As for the crusty old dad comment, some of us old farts have climbed harder trad than many of the new pups ever will. Don't assume that age or experience means you never pulled down hard (especially Rich G). Lots of us have slowed down due to age, time commitments, injury, etc. That doesn't mean we haven't been there, done that.

Fat Dad wrote: I think the primary point I was trying to make is that the notion that you'll learn to set gear by test falling on it strikes me as really cavalier. If your "test" reveals that you've placed gear poorly, you've got problems, possibly really bad ones.

This is why, when I teach new Trad Leaders, I have them learn to place protection on the ground until I'm satisfied with it, and then have them do it on a top-rope pulling a practice lead line for clipping and then falling on the gear (while still on the top-rope belay). It won't get to Factor 2 fall energy level, but it will give them some confidence in their ability to place gear, and that it will hold them. Familiarity can help improve confidence.

-Take a course on anchor building/placements.
-Climb trad exclusively following a competent leader.
-Begin leading at a very low level i.e. 5.0.

Or, do what I did. Follow a competent leader and start leading.

I have never understood the benefit of falling in a controlled environment. I'm not doubting that method, however, nothing compares to the real thing.

Keep climbing trad and placing anchors and improving. You will arrive at the point where you will fall on hard routes you attempt. Then (and only then) will your confidence soar.

Good luck

Easy..stop clipping bolts, start placing gear

SXL wrote:victory whippers

^^^^
Avoid using that term. Your gap will close more quickly.

I'm in the opposite boat. I climb about the same sport and trad but I want to climb harder sport!

nicelegs wrote:I had this same problem in reverse. After years of climbing nothing but trad and talking shit about sport, I was consistently climbing a grade harder trad than sport. I wanted the strength and endurance of sport, so I did a ton of it. Sure I still climbed trad but 80% of my climbing became sport. What happened is I started sending hard (for me) sport routes and I got way more consistent and well rounded on all the trad. It really upped my alpine game but even helped in the creek. I would expect the same but opposite for you, if you choose to put in way way more time trad than sport for the next couple years, it'll come around. Then you'll improve your sport because you'll find jams and stances on some routes that you might miss as a sporto.

I have your previous problem. I've climbed more than 99% trad. I still don't really trust bolts (when I started, bolts were not to be trusted). I place good gear, quickly, but I'm definitely not used to falling on it. I think some sport and/or gym climbing would "round me out" and make me a better climber overall.

Steve Levin wrote:Do mileage at the trad grade you are fluent at, then increase difficulty. Repeat.

Sage advice and worth following. It's great fun, give maximum time on the rock, and lots of chances for improving technique.

Fat Dad and Steve Levin are on the right track.

My take on it is that for Sport you trust the gear, and for Trad you trust your ability. Sure, learning to place gear, having confidence in your gear, and falling on gear all help. However, these steps avoid the base principal that you must first rely on yourself. My recommendation is to spend a lot of time leading at grades and in situations where you feel in control.

There are a million tricks out there, but really the only way to climb the same grade of trad as sport is learn to trust your placements. take falls, lots of them, get scared and then push past it. Think about this...you don't know who put that bolt in, what it was torqued to, what the rock quality was that was drilled in, how long the bolt is, what there cleaning method was, etc...you do know what the piece of gear is that you put in, the rock around it, the direction of pull when you get above it, where you would fall, how that gear has been treated during its life with you, etc. what would you trust more? I go with gear. I take falls all the time, big and small. I have had a few pieces pull but only twice in 9 years of falling on gear. if you don't trust it, place a second. climbing on gear is just a mental thing you have to get used to, learn to deal with or hang up the rack and grab the draws.

Here is an interesting perspective on the sport to trad transition from a champion comp climber. ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

One point. You should learn how to fall on bolts, not on gear. Placing gear, I try to never fall, period. Trust in your placements should come with time.

Also, learning with a sparse rack, IMO, is better than with a fat rack. You are forced to learn to read the climb from the ground, budget your gear, and improvise things that don't come up when you have a mammoth rack.

Another 2 cents ;)

One addition.. as this is the new trad guy advice.. once established in your comfortable trad zone... when you start pushing hard for higher grades above your range. Raising that bar. Falling on gear will become more common, and to truly push to that next level, you should be comfortable climbing to failure. Which means a fall onto gear.

Overall direct answer: Depends

Ian Cavanaugh wrote:There are a million tricks out there, but really the only way to climb the same grade of trad as sport is learn to trust your placements. take falls, lots of them, get scared and then push past it. Think about this...you don't know who put that bolt in, what it was torqued to, what the rock quality was that was drilled in, how long the bolt is, what there cleaning method was, etc...you do know what the piece of gear is that you put in, the rock around it, the direction of pull when you get above it, where you would fall, how that gear has been treated during its life with you, etc. what would you trust more? I go with gear. I take falls all the time, big and small. I have had a few pieces pull but only twice in 9 years of falling on gear. if you don't trust it, place a second. climbing on gear is just a mental thing you have to get used to, learn to deal with or hang up the rack and grab the draws.

That's more or less the way I'll go. Gunks has plenty of awesome climbing in all grades (except maybe the harder grades) and I can both get some easier mileage as well as jump on some harder projects ground-up.

INTERVIEW: Caroline Ciavaldini Talks Trad


I had to learn to deal with a new kind of stress: the fear of hurting youself. This isn’t at all part of the game in sport climbing.

In the end, I have realised that the best way to not get hurt, is to climb very well when it is dangerous. Which means to be able to control your stress… and for that, I reuse techniques that I developed in competitions to handle the fear of failure: I focus on the climbing, the movements. Yuji (Hiriyama) put this into words recently: he told me that trad lies in the moment where you decide if you will commit to climbing a route or not. That is the moment when you have to choose to accept the risk. Once you are in the route, being scared is pointless; it doesn’t help you climb better. So get rid of the fear.

Of course I am only talking about routes after work. When onsighting I think you have to listen to the fear and decide to stop and back down if you are about to take too much risk.

ukclimbing.com/articles/pag…

;)

Video about the topic:

youtube.com/watch?v=0-8MxOC…

rgold wrote: I think a lot of the recommendations in your thread on that topic were too lean. I'd suggest a full set of nuts, a set of brassies, double cams from micro up to green camalot, and one each of red, yellow and blue. You are already climbing at a level at which the small stuff can be a big help.

Per your advice (and others, thank you all!!!) I am planning to buy a bunch of cams (I already own two :P ). Would below be a reasonable Gunks rack?

1 Dragon 00 (Blue)
1 Dragon 0 (Silver)
1 Dragon 1 (Purple)
2 Dragon 2 (Green)
1 Dragon 3 (Red)
1 Dragon 4 (Gold)
1 Dragon 5 (Blue)
1 Alien 1/3 (black)
1 Alien 3/8 (blue)
1 Alien 1/2 (green)
1 Alien 3/4 (yellow)
1 Link Cam 0.5 (Purple)
Set of ABS nuts (13)
Set of DMM RPs (6)
10 mammut 24" 8mm slings
5 quick draws
2 4' wide nylon slings

Would this get me up most Gunks routes? Is something extra? Should I add something?

Learning to place gear takes some practice but isn't rocket science.

A big part of transitioning from one style of climbing to another is psychological- being uncomfortable with that which is unfamiliar & varies from your routine.

Case in point- I climbed trad exclusively for decades & only recently began climbing bolted sport routes. Even though it is probably easier, and maybe safer, than trad climbing, I found myself rather uneasy with my first few sport leads. Clipping bolts is obviously less involved than placing gear but it was not in my comfort zone at first. After a few leads, I relaxed and actually prefer sport climbs in some ways (but still love long trad routes).