Lowering off anchors, rehashhhh

Rframe wrote:... Is the issue that people just steal them instead of leaving them at the anchors for others? rockymountainclimbinggear.c…

Unfortunately, yes, I can almost guarantee that someone would steal these.

how many have died/been injured due to worn anchor faliure, vs. how many have died/been injured due to miscommunication between belayer/climber on rapping vs. lowering?

I've never heard of "rope wears through anchor, climber falls to death, maybe it happens, but i certainly read "miscommunication between climber/belayer" or "rappelling incident" quit often.

I almost always lower. If i am going to lower and not clean it, or am setting up a top rope, I thread rope through my own gear.

IMHO, this is the simplest, safest, and most foolproof set of rules to go by in 90% of cases and should be taught as standard operating procedure for climbers.

csproul wrote: Until you're cleaning a very overhung or traversing route.

That's really beside the point as it files under the "depends on the situation" argument which has already been addressed fully enough on this thread.

Point is people think rappelling is unsafe but there are things you can do to make it safer. And besides, the whole untying argument is a little nuts to me because the only way it's unsafe is if you don't do it right.

This is far different from the ATC/Gri-Gri debate where you can do everything right with an ATC but a lone falling rock can lead to your climber being crippled or killed.

Highlander wrote: Even if you have to untie there are still ways to be tied into the rope and you are always on belay, not to mention also in direct on the anchor some how. Was there a knot tied at the end of the rope? If there was there would not have been an issue. Lowering is safer than rappelling, that should not even be a debate. There are situations where rappelling may be warranted based on the anchor configuration, hard on the rope, etc. But lowering is the safest option when it is possible.

Lowering is NOT the safest option always

Real life example ...

Climber is at the top of a climb, cant see the belayer nor hear em because of the noise of the close by highway

Good communication is simply not possible

Rapping in such a case would be safe as youre not certain yr belayer can hear you

;)

doligo wrote: You missed the main point of proponents of lower-offs: no matter what you do to you and your rope, your belayer NEVER TAKES YOU OFF BELAY. How is untying and retying is more dangerous than untying and rigging a rappel? I believe Nicelegs started this thread in lieu of recent accidents. If we all learn/accept to anticipate that a climber is going to lower off by default there will be no issues of miscommunication. What is there so pressing for your belayer to do that they can't attend to you an extra 30 sec to 1 minute to lower off? If you are so eager to go jump on another climb, lowering off is actually faster than rappelling, btw. Nobody in this thread who is in favor of lower offs thinks lowering off is the only way to go. We all rappel if a situation dictates us to, but in most single-pitch cragging situations lowering off is a much safer option especially if the route is equipped with biners or mussy hooks.

And you absolutely miss my point in favor of your personal attacks

Ive said that It depends on the situation

As to tieing /untying thats my default method of lowering ... The point is unless you always count on having rings that you can pull a bight through, practice the untie/retie method as youll need to use it when you encounter thinner chains

Ive seen folks drop the rope because they dont practice this when they need to do it for lowers ... Or even rappels

Not to mention if you want to do multi you better have your rappel skills down pat

FYI information i lower most of the time when cragging with a partner ... And i rappel when rope soloing of course

;)

bearbreeder wrote: Lowering is NOT the safest option always Real life example ... Climber is at the top of a climb, cant see the belayer nor hear em because of the noise of the close by highway Good communication is simply not possible Rapping in such a case would be safe as youre not certain yr belayer can hear you ;)

It is the safest option when your partner knows to never take you off of belay and that you are going to lower. Plus it pretty easy to know that your partner has taken you tight before you unclip from the anchor, and you could always keep a hand on the belayer side of the rope just to make sure.

Lower when you can because it's safer, easier, faster
Rappel when you have to........

doligo wrote:Why do so many people think lowering is harder on ropes than rappelling? We are talking vertical to beyond vertical climbing here. Top roping is hard on the rope, taking whippers is hard on the rope, hangdogging and working the route is hard on the rope... All the above are the most-likely elements of any sort of single-pitch climbing.

From mammut

;)

Clif Clap wrote: That's really beside the point as it files under the "depends on the situation" argument which has already been addressed fully enough on this thread. Point is people think rappelling is unsafe but there are things you can do to make it safer. And besides, the whole untying argument is a little nuts to me because the only way it's unsafe is if you don't do it right. This is far different from the ATC/Gri-Gri debate where you can do everything right with an ATC but a lone falling rock can lead to your climber being crippled or killed.

Not disagreeing with you...just pointing out that a firemans belay won't help you safely clean a steep route on rappel. There are times when lowering is better and times when rappelling is better, and times when it doesn't matter either way as long as you do it correctly and safely.

Highlander wrote: It is the safest option when your partner knows to never take you off of belay and that you are going to lower. Plus it pretty easy to know that your partner has taken you tight before you unclip from the anchor, and you could always keep a hand on the belayer side of the rope just to make sure.

While you theory is all nice and pretty on the intrawebz

The reality is over and over again folks get dropped lowering, especially when communication is poor due to LOS or noise issues

On the afternoon of Tuesday, May 17, American Alpine Club (AAC) Executive Director Phil Powers was injured in a climbing accident. He is presently in stable condition in the intensive care ward at St. Anthony’s Hospital in Denver, CO.

When the accident occurred, Powers was climbing with a group near AAC headquarters in Clear Creek Canyon’s Highwire area outside of Golden, CO. Clear Creek Canyon is a popular and accessible sport climbing crag on public land.

The area where the group was climbing is directly above the highway and river. The rock formation at the site of the accident is overhanging making direct sight contact difficult. Due to communication difficulties, there was confusion amongst the party over Powers’ method of descent which resulted in Powers falling approximately 50 feet to the ground.


nysaac.blogspot.ca/2011/05/…

When in doubt about whether your partner can hear/see you and without the confirmation commands ... Rap, its safer at that point

those who say you should ALWAYS lower are the same type of folks who say you should always rap ... They are more interested in being "right" than "safe"

The answer as ive always said is it depends

bearbreeder wrote: While you theory is all nice and pretty on the intrawebz The reality is over and over again folks get dropped lowering, especially when communication is poor due to LOS or noise issues On the afternoon of Tuesday, May 17, American Alpine Club (AAC) Executive Director Phil Powers was injured in a climbing accident. He is presently in stable condition in the intensive care ward at St. Anthony’s Hospital in Denver, CO. When the accident occurred, Powers was climbing with a group near AAC headquarters in Clear Creek Canyon’s Highwire area outside of Golden, CO. Clear Creek Canyon is a popular and accessible sport climbing crag on public land. The area where the group was climbing is directly above the highway and river. The rock formation at the site of the accident is overhanging making direct sight contact difficult. Due to communication difficulties, there was confusion amongst the party over Powers’ method of descent which resulted in Powers falling approximately 50 feet to the ground. nysaac.blogspot.ca/2011/05/… When in doubt about whether your partner can hear/see you and without the confirmation commands ... Rap, its safer at that point those who say you should ALWAYS lower are the same type of folks who say you should always rap ... They are more interested in being "right" than "safe" The answer as ive always said is it depends

You still don't get it, if it is common practice to get lowered and your partners know to not take you off belay and that you are going to lower before you start up the climb, then there is no accident, no communication problems. The problem is his belayer should have never taken him off belay, assumed he was going to rap, the climber should have let his belayer know that he was going to lower before starting the climb. Why do people not do these things? This is common sense climbing and should be part of your checklist like buddy checking each other before starting climbing: check knot, harness, belay device knot in end of rope, going to lower. Simple, why turn something as safe as single pitch cragging into something dangerous.

Highlander wrote: You still don't get it, if it is common practice to get lowered and your partners know to not take you off belay and that you are going to lower before you start up the climb, then there is no accident, no communication problems. The problem is his belayer should have never taken him off belay, assumed he was going to rap, the climber should have let his belayer know that he was going to lower before starting the climb. Why do people not do these things? This is common sense climbing and should be part of your checklist like buddy checking each other before starting climbing: check knot, harness, belay device knot in end of rope, going to lower. Simple, why turn something as safe as single pitch cragging into something dangerous.

You still dont get it

Im a BIG proponent of having the belayer not take the climber off belay as you can read here

mountainproject.com/v/fall-…

However time and time again ive seen folks get taken off belay by "experienced" belayers/climbers

Sometimes its bad habits, other times its because the crag is crowded and the wrong commands got heard, and other times because traffic noise/wind garbled the response

Lowering accidents can happen to anyone as can rapping ones if you get a brain fart

if you cant clearly hear or see your belayer responding to you then either self lower or rappel

I really cant believe that you are "arguing" its "safer" to just "go for it" without clear confirmation

Thats "safety" on MP these days i guess

Folks that think "if you dont do it my way yr UNSAFE"

;)

bearbreeder wrote: You still dont get it Im a BIG proponent of having the belayer not take the climber off belay as you can read here mountainproject.com/v/fall-… However time and time again ive seen folks get taken off belay by "experienced" belayers/climbers Sometimes its bad habits, other times its because the crag is crowded and the wrong commands got heard, and other times because traffic noise/wind garbled the response Lowering accidents can happen to anyone as can rapping ones if you get a brain fart if you cant clearly hear or see your belayer responding to you then either self lower or rappel I really cant believe that you are "arguing" its "safer" to just "go for it" without clear confirmation Thats "safety" on MP these days i guess Folks that think "if you dont do it my way yr UNSAFE" ;)

Just reposted again so you could read again. You still don't get it, if it is common practice to get lowered and your partners know to not take you off belay and that you are going to lower before you start up the climb, then there is no accident, no communication problems. The problem is his belayer should have never taken him off belay, assumed he was going to rap, the climber should have let his belayer know that he was going to lower before starting the climb. Why do people not do these things? This is common sense climbing and should be part of your checklist like buddy checking each other before starting climbing: check knot, harness, belay device knot in end of rope, going to lower. Simple, why turn something as safe as single pitch cragging into something dangerous.

Lower when you can
Rappel when you have too

I am out

Highlander wrote: Just reposted again so you could read again. You still don't get it, if it is common practice to get lowered and your partners know to not take you off belay and that you are going to lower before you start up the climb, then there is no accident, no communication problems. The problem is his belayer should have never taken him off belay, assumed he was going to rap, the climber should have let his belayer know that he was going to lower before starting the climb. Why do people not do these things? This is common sense climbing and should be part of your checklist like buddy checking each other before starting climbing: check knot, harness, belay device knot in end of rope, going to lower. Simple, why turn something as safe as single pitch cragging into something dangerous. Lower when you can Ravel when you have too I am out

So just let me make this absolutely clear that im "getting it"

you are advocating that the climber ALWAYS lower no matter what even in the absence of clear visual and audio communication with the belayer???

That doesnt sound very safe to me

Heres a real life example that happens all the time at crags here ... You agree to lower (your partner doesnt want to follow) but once you get to the top you find it has horizontally spaced rings that will twist your rope if you lower through em ... Or worse metolius rap bolts

So you switch your plans to rap ... You dont ALWAYS lower

Theres a big difference between da intrawebz "do it my way or else" and real life

Im off to get in a few laps before it rains hopefully !!!

;)

doligo wrote: ...no matter what you do to you and your rope, your belayer NEVER TAKES YOU OFF BELAY.....We all rappel if a situation dictates us to...

NEVER? Then how do you ever rappel? Your two statements contradict each other.

I am in the rappel camp, and have never lowered on chains or rings, but would on hooks I suppose if need be. But I only see hooks in the gym.

Here is a true personal story.

I was climbing at the Creek and just finished leading one of those 150-footers. Since we didn't have an 80M rope back then, I hauled a tag line and rigged a rappel. For those who are not familiar with this method, you anchor yourself in, pull the rope through the gear, lower your end of the rope to the ground, secure the other end of the rope to yourself, belayer ties in the tag line and you pull both ropes up, rig a rappel with two ropes with a knot at the anchor. Because I also had left my belay device on the ground, which I'd realized later, I had to pull a rope up one more time.

Doing all this, dealing with the rope cluster eff, after what was then for me a demanding pitch, my brains got fried and I found myself all of a sudden unclipping from the anchors before getting on rappel! Luckily the anchors were on a slabby terrain, and I quickly caught my fuckup, but for a second I was completely off belay just holding chains with my bare hands. I got myself clipped back to the anchors and rigged myself properly. A thought of what would've happened if I wasn't hanging on to the chains still gives me chills...

If I had a longer rope and was going to lower, even if I fucked up and completely unclipped myself from the anchors, the worst thing could've happened is that I would've whipped on my last piece of gear, backed up by the previous gear and so on... If I fucked the rappel and let my hands completely go, I would've free fallen 150 feet to the ground. No fireman's belay would've been of help. I may have briefly thought with a rope clipped to myself I was going to lower off or something (again, if I was on belay, it would've saved me if I let my hands go).

I lost a friend to a rappel accident (reportedly only one strand of rope through a belay device) and know people who ended up in a wheelchair. I know I fucked up, and I should've triple-checked myself before unclipping, but these things happen, people make mistakes and rappelling mistakes are the ones that actually cost you the dearest.

Jim Turner wrote: NEVER? Then how do you ever rappel? Your two statements contradict each other. I am in the rappel camp, and have never lowered on chains or rings, but would on hooks I suppose if need be. But I only see hooks in the gym.

I see what you did there... Soundbites out of context. Out of the political ads textbook. Bravo.

People associate lowering from chains with top-roping from the anchors. They are different things. If there is a large group of people top roping a route then put your own anchors up. I think everyone agrees with that. Depending on the route and the terrain, it is sometimes better and easier to lower. If you feel bad, donate some money to the local climbing coalition. For me, I rappel when I can on vertical and straight up routes, or if the rap rings are skinny and not very confidence-inspiring. It all just depends.

I have also nearly screwed myself on rappel as well. I was rapping down "War and Poetry" on Ulamasortuaq (sp?) in Greenland (because apparently I am a gym climber). After the 20th or so rap, and being rather fried, I just stood on a 6 inch ledge and took myself off rappel. I was probably about to lean back on my non existent slings, I can't remember. My buddy saw it and hollered at me and I clipped in. Certainly this isn't a situation where you could do anything but rap but it just goes to show, you will make mistakes, especially on the repetitive mindless shit. It's always best to hedge your bets with a safer practice.

doligo wrote: I see what you did there... Soundbites out of context. Out of the political ads textbook. Bravo.

Didn't mean to take anything out of context. I think I misunderstood your post.

In your opinion, what anchor cleaning situation would dictate rappel?

Lower when you can. Rap when you must is the best clear and simple statement of what people should generally do, and simple is a good thing. Reasons why it might be better to rap? sub-quality anchors such as aluminum rings, Metolious rap hangers, those notorious Fixe single ring per hanger anchors, rope rubbing over sharp edges or course rock, double rope needed etc.

As far as being dropped; well that means you have picked a bad belayer. Things should have been worked out before you set off from the ground and that includes what to do if situations change and you can't be seen or heard. The belayer should never take somebody off belay without a definitive and confirmed request. Just pay out a little slack if you can't see and hear the climber and they are pulling the rope up and take it mostly back in if it goes slack. You don't take them off even if you have to sit there for an hour.