Lowering off anchors, rehashhhh

I prefer to finish a sport climb, anchor in and top belay my second off my harness, then simul rap... no, clearly no. Situation dictates which method one uses. All methods are evaluated for safety, convenience and applicability to the situation then the best method selected.
I don't see how this is a discussion...?

Why do so many people think lowering is harder on ropes than rappelling? We are talking vertical to beyond vertical climbing here. Top roping is hard on the rope, taking whippers is hard on the rope, hangdogging and working the route is hard on the rope... All the above are the most-likely elements of any sort of single-pitch climbing.

Highlander wrote: You feed a bight of rope through the chains or link and clip a into a locker on your belay loop...

OK, you got me, the bight would probably fit through normal sized links or chains. I learned to anchor myself as opposed to depending on the belay (using rope, cord, webbing, whatever). Major style difference thanks to my background; never seen a bight passed through chain. I probably should stay out of sport threads :)

nicelegs wrote:I distracted the Indian Creek anchors thread and started a pissing match. I ought not have done that. I am sorry, so so sorry. Now, lets play out the same thing over again here with the 459th version of this subject. My claim is that it's better to lower than to rap in most single pitch situations. I'll further my claim that those who rap are relative n00bs who have been told to, old farts who don't climb enough to quantify their "years of experience" (ie, grey haired n00bs), or people who do it in one single area and are projecting a local style upon all climbing quite ignorantly. It's much safer to lower, especially so when the routes are equipped with Mussey Hooks, quick links that aren't tightened down, or biners. A system where you don't untie should become the standard. All it takes is an end to all this pissing and moaning about wear. People get dropped when the guy on the ground isn't clear about what's happening and takes the climber off belay. If we lived in a standard where the climber never got taken off belay in a standard situation, this factor would be eliminated. Exceptions -If the route is more than half the length of rope and you're using a tagline, of course you rap. -If the anchors are those bullshit Metolious fat hangers, those fixe ring combo, if someone stole the bottom half of a two biner/link setup, or any other situation that will miserably twist your rope. -If (as Gred D alluded to, but erroneously, since he was talking about Indian Creek, the land of vertical and smooth pulls. Maybe he should climb cleaner routes and leave the broken ledgy crap to the spring breakers) the rope pull causes damage to the rock. Finally, I'll add. I've placed anchors all over the damn place. Many of my friends have placed many more. We're all in agreement. Lower off the damn things, have fun, we hope you enjoyed the route. If you wear out a chain, that's awesome, it means it's getting traffic. Traffic = route developers happy place. So if the dude with the drill and the backpack full of steel says lower away, who then are you saving the wear for?

Nice and comprehensive post. Cheers!

Jake Jones wrote: You are. Generally, guidebooks will allude to the best way to do things and accepted methods for each area. For this particular area, the guidebook author and the vast majority of people agree on this method: Have you ever been out of the rock-abundant state of Florida?

I just moved here from Broomfield and have spent the last year climbing in Eldo, close to where the OP is from and where (I believe) the latest incident occurred. So maybe in your Guidebook for your area it is acceptable for whatever reason (I assume less traffic) but in the area of the incident I dont believe it is.

Highlander wrote: You feed a bight of rope through the chains or link and clip a into a locker on your belay loop. Or you simply put the rope through the biners or mussy hooks and lower. If you have to untie the rope to feed through the anchor, you are still on belay, your partner never takes you off and there are ways to back yourself up so that you are still clipped into the rope and being belayed. This elementary level stuff, no wonder there are accidents at the crags.

At many climbs in squamish the chains are small enough that you cant do this ... Youll need to untie and retie especially with thicker ropes

Which if you havent practised over and over again youre more likely to screw up

There was an accident a few years ago where a women used the bight through the rings method

Unfortunately this was on a rope stretcher climb and the extra few feet meant she no longer had enough rope to lower safely ... The rope zipped through the belayers device and she tumbled down

She needed to get choppered out

There is NO one size fits all solution ... It all depends

Except on MP that is where if its not done my way yr UNSAFE UNSAFE UNSAFE !!!

Nicelegs. I'm sorry you felt the need to start a new thread regarding the same topic. I didn't mean to scare you away. I do my best to have cordial discussions even with those that I disagree. But I can be a bit harsh or sarcastic sometimes. Sorry if I offended you.

But anyone that makes boiler plate assertions that one way is better than the other has missed the wonderful diversity in rock climbing that makes it enjoyable. And as the mp community just expressed so well, the best answer: "it depends".

John Wilder wrote:this whole rappelling thing is a nice sentiment for saving anchors, but the reality is that people top rope and lower off anchors as a matter of course, no matter how much educating we do. better to rig the anchors to accommodate actual use rather than theoretical use, imho.

Well said, and I think developers should be putting more thought into easily replaceable lowering anchors. It makes me smile to see modular setups in place.

doligo wrote:Why do so many people think lowering is harder on ropes than rappelling?

The rope grinding sound and feel you get when lowering over a lip (obviously situation dependent).

There's no question it's easier to clean steep/traversing terrain while being lowered vs rappel. But in situations where the second cleans on TR, the main benefit of rapping isn't saving the anchor/rope but time savings. Why does it take 2 people to get off a single pitch? When the climber goes off belay at the anchor, belayer can start organizing gear, drink water, etc while the climber raps. When climber gets down, belayer pulls rope and coils it while climber changes shoes, takes piss, etc. Seems more efficient to me, but I would love to be told I'm wrong. BTW, here in little and big cottonwood canyons, you'd have to be climbing on dental floss to easily thread a bight on many routes.

There's a million anchor configurations and possible scenarios. Accidents don't happen because there aren't hard and fast rules about getting off the mountain. A little communication will go a long way.

Generally I try to rap off. That way my belayer can get around to more important shit than staring at my ass..... like eating sendwiches, firing up the JetBoil French press and loading up a bong. FUCK YOUR WHITE/BLACK WORLD.

Mark E Dixon wrote:I don't care if you belay me with an ATC, a gri-gri or even a cinch, as long as you know how to use it. I don't care if you tie in with a figure eight, a bowline or a bro knot. I don't care if you wear a helmet. I don't care if you indulge in the devil's weed. I don't care if you don't want to do a buddy check, as long as you don't try to prevent me from doing it for both of us. But I have just about reached the point where I will NOT climb with anybody that wants to rap off single pitch, fixed anchor routes. There is almost never any reason to do it and I am tired of hearing about folks getting dropped and just don't want to be part of it. I want my belayer to AUTOMATICALLY assume that it's his/her job to keep me on belay till I am lowered to the ground. Period. And the best way for them to assume that about me, is if they assume that for themselves. Some of us just aren't meant to climb together safely.

Assuming=making an ass of you and me. Never assume. In more than a few instances it is not possible to tell from the ground if the route shoul be rapped, lowered off, or the second belayed off top multipitch style. When a leader approaches a rap station he or she may encounter things that will facilitate that decision. Learn to communicate with your partners. Do not assume. Dump your partners for a bowline because hawling them on a gurney off the approach will spoil your evening. Dump your partners for no helmet because bloody gushers are not very appetizing before dinner. Dump your partners for assuming because they will get your ass in trouble. It's just a matter of time.

It sounds silly that "community decided "it depends"". Of course it depends! I am still trying to get used to seeing all the new climbers transitioning from the gym to outdoors with minimal understanding of all the details involved. Newbies teaching newbies and people teaching themselves over the Internet spells disaster on the rock. As a community we should be more embracing of the new climbers and foster mentorship instead of stirring them away. Passing on the mountain craft to new guns can be quite rewarding!

I think everyone on this thread should just go bouldering.. but, shit, wait, is it acceptable to jump onto the pad or must you down climb? Dam, now I don't know what to do!?! Looks like I'm in for the (in)famous un-planned bivy on top of this boulder.

Also, It has been made clear by route developers no one cares if you lower, also surprisingly no one cares if your rappel. Just communicate with your belayer before you climb, don't wear the fucking "Nipple" from the other post on your harness, and stay safe. It's a true shame that so many people are still getting seriously injured in this manner, both trying to lower and trying to rappel. In most instances miscommunication is at fault. All of this is situationally dependent anyway just like most things in climbing, as proven by the numerous people who have posted exceptions to their rule in their posts, including the OP. Learn both, communicate, don't suck.

bearbreeder wrote: Im not quite sure how my partner would have cleaned this little ruuuf on rappel safely Im open to practical proven ideas ;)

What we normally do is second the route on top rope, cleaning the draws as we climb, clip the hooks, or set up a lower, or a rappel depending on what is at the anchor and easily and safely come back to earth, pretty simple. You just have to be able to climb the ruuuf your partner lead, on top-rope..

Eric Fernandez wrote: What we normally do is second the route on top rope, cleaning the draws as we climb, clip the hooks, or set up a lower, or a rappel depending on what is at the anchor and easily and safely come back to earth, pretty simple. You just have to be able to climb the ruuuf your partner lead, on top-rope..

Thats assuming your partner wants to top rope steep routes which many folks dont ... And its often easier to lead steep routes than TR due to the swings

Not to mention that in this particular case the partner needs to be able to follow and take out the gear quickly on a 15 foot dead horizontal 5.12+ ruuuf ... If you dont youll swing when you fall and need to prussik back up

;)

As a old fart, I’d like to toss in this little idea.

Whether to Rap or Lower depends on the situation.

This is mostly defined by the area and how the anchors are set.

Example, and please excuse my limited travel experience.

At a place like Owens, Alabama Hills, Pine Creek where Mussy Hooks abound, one lowers.

Trying to clean steep sport is pretty difficult and dangerous when on Rap so I hope that route developers
of the steep, know this and spend the bucks on the Mussy Hooks or biners. (I do by the way)

Places like New Jack City, Zappa Cliff, Valhalla , The Hi-Desert and any place where the anchors are chains, the last climber down, raps.

I think its pretty stupid to try and to define what one must always do in all situations.

Carry on.

bearbreeder wrote: At many climbs in squamish the chains are small enough that you cant do this ... Youll need to untie and retie especially with thicker ropes Which if you havent practised over and over again youre more likely to screw up There was an accident a few years ago where a women used the bight through the rings method Unfortunately this was on a rope stretcher climb and the extra few feet meant she no longer had enough rope to lower safely ... The rope zipped through the belayers device and she tumbled down She needed to get choppered out There is NO one size fits all solution ... It all depends Except on MP that is where if its not done my way yr UNSAFE UNSAFE UNSAFE !!!

Even if you have to untie there are still ways to be tied into the rope and you are always on belay, not to mention also in direct on the anchor some how. Was there a knot tied at the end of the rope? If there was there would not have been an issue. Lowering is safer than rappelling, that should not even be a debate. There are situations where rappelling may be warranted based on the anchor configuration, hard on the rope, etc. But lowering is the safest option when it is possible.

bearbreeder wrote: At many climbs in squamish the chains are small enough that you cant do this ... Youll need to untie and retie especially with thicker ropes Which if you havent practised over and over again youre more likely to screw up

You missed the main point of proponents of lower-offs: no matter what you do to you and your rope, your belayer NEVER TAKES YOU OFF BELAY. How is untying and retying is more dangerous than untying and rigging a rappel?

I believe Nicelegs started this thread in lieu of recent accidents. If we all learn/accept to anticipate that a climber is going to lower off by default there will be no issues of miscommunication. What is there so pressing for your belayer to do that they can't attend to you an extra 30 sec to 1 minute to lower off? If you are so eager to go jump on another climb, lowering off is actually faster than rappelling, btw.

Nobody in this thread who is in favor of lower offs thinks lowering off is the only way to go. We all rappel if a situation dictates us to, but in most single-pitch cragging situations lowering off is a much safer option especially if the route is equipped with biners or mussy hooks.

My friends and I always give the person rappelling a fireman's belay. It makes what has been called not-as-safe on this thread, pretty damn safe.

As a noob this seems like a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-dont situation that we cannot make anybody happy over. If you decide its safer and more efficient to lower, then some self-righteous dude will be along in no time to school you on your ignorance and disregard for anchors. Go with the flow and rappel and then a heavily-invested route setter will tell you to be safer and lower off their chains. The only conclusion I've come to is - do whatever you want.

It seems the only real argument against lowering is (other than someone wanting to practice rappel) is wear, something pretty easily remedied with a cheap and easily replaced bottom link.

It seems that a lot of people love the idea of mussy hooks but they seem to be getting more expensive and harder to get?

Why not use something like these 50kn steel lockers from Rocky Mountain Climbing Gear that cost a whopping $5. Pretty cheap, steel wont wear too fast (and easily replaced when time comes), and can be used without going off belay. Is the issue that people just steal them instead of leaving them at the anchors for others?

http://rockymountainclimbinggear.com/shop/locking-carabiners/

Clif Clap wrote:My friends and I always give the person rappelling a fireman's belay. It makes what has been called not-as-safe on this thread, pretty damn safe.

Until you're cleaning a very overhung or traversing route.