Too much "beta" on MP... losing sense of adventure

Crackhack wrote:Oh, I feel misunderstood today. Yes, my own doing, but still... Please read my above post before flaming (I realize it's long but it may clarify and help stay on topic). Sorry, the bolding is just to help this not get lost in the fray. No fight to be had here.

TLDR brah

Well, I guess one thing we have learned from this thread is who the latest Elleanor incarnation is.

Tim Lutz wrote:I lost all respect for Honnold when I learned he had sponsorships. Bachar didnt need no stinkin sponsors! Bachar was a real soloist from the Golden Age of climbing.

Maybe Bachar didn't need sponsors, but he definitely had them. Sorry to burst your hero bubble

If one uses some of the directions given on MP to locate climbing spots, you will be in for a big adventure.

BigA wrote: Maybe Bachar didn't need sponsors, but he definitely had them. Sorry to burst your hero bubble

Yes, they were giant bags of marijuana.

Guy Keesee wrote:If one uses some of the directions given on MP to locate climbing spots, you will be in for a big adventure.

^^^words of wisdom!
Or you can just have a buddy to show you. Chalk marks are always a great clue.

I have done plenty of adventure climbing. I spent three years climbing in a area that had three ancient sport routes and miles of untouched rock. I didn't have a choice and I can tell you that while it was fun at times it would be extreamly frustrating for someone on a short weekend trip. The whole idea behind online beta and guidebooks is for people to go into an area knowing what they want to climb. It keeps you from wondering what boulder could be just down the hill.

Some argued that the beta on moves is too much and I disagree with that. It allowed me to decide which problems would suite me the best.

If you have all year to explore an area then throw away the guidebook and just go explore. If your flying into a state to climb for a week then you will want to have a good idea of what lines you want to get on. AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE!!

Wise Betta Fish has a good question:

.....and finally, Hitler!

Being more of a trad climber I appreciate beta on the route's location, belays, descent and gear requirements. Other than that I can take it or leave it.

I'm sure everyone that has climbed enough has spend long days walking trying to find a route or figure out if the black and white topo line you are on is the line you were going for.

When I first moved out here we were looking for Fandango (5.5) on the 1st, and ended up getting on Kamakazi roofs (5.9). Similar starts one just a bit above the other. After like the 5th roof we said "I though the description said 3 roofs"? A fun route, but 4 grades above our intended climb.

I think sporties and boulders enjoy the movement and discussion of the moves from an athletic perspective a bit more. Not that traddies don't, but personally I'm cool with knowing where the approximate belay is rope lengthwise and if I need a #4.

If I do post beta on a route's comments I always add in the "BETA"warning.

Seems like the porn addict blaming the internet for his addiction. You go out of your way to sit in front of your computer, go to this site, log in and read beta for hours, then whine and complain on this site that it ruined your experience. Some stupid bullshit if you ask me. Don't read it. It is not remotely similar to the bolting discussion as alluded to before. If you are climbing a route you have to go by every bolt put in. You are going out of your way to seek this beta, then complaining it exists.

Ahmed IbnHabibjan wrote:I think I have a problem too..my brain keeps wanting more info, more data, more beta, more and more. It's never ever enough. It's like ....I don't know.

I'm that way with everything I do. I think that's why I like climbing. I'm constantly learning and being stimulated.

Typical SuperTopo poster:

youtube.com/watch?v=BbU4Cb4…

That said, I would appreciate a SPOILERS tag so beta spray was hidden

Beta dad

"It is strange to observe that ever since man has been drawn to the mountains by a love of wild nature, rigor, solitude, and the unknown, all of which he found in that final refuge, he has done everything to eliminate precisely what he sought there."

-Jacques Lagarde

Got back from vacation. It seems this thread is in response to my beta request. rgold's reply is better than I could have written. I will add a little detail about myself and my circumstances. First, I enjoy adventurous climbing such as a multi pitch trad climb in the Adirondacks as well as an onsight deep water solo (likely FA) of a diving cliff. I also enjoyed the adventure of running around a newly opened area and scoping out and cleaning/climbing potential FAs. I usually go for the onsight. But I was recommended in a training book that if you fail the onsight attempt that you should seek out as much beta as possible and treat the redpoint as a learning experience. Redpoints and onsights both have different and good ways of teaching the climber something. I should also add that I also find that working a route for a redpoint without outside beta can also be good for learning in its own way.

All that being said, at the end of the day this particular climb is barely outside of town in a graffiti laden, chossy former quarry. Not that much adventure to be had there. I go there to get stronger. Is it so bad that I occasionally seek out beta on a site meant for beta? Keep in mind most of the time I avoid beta. If you're viewing MP, a site for beta, don't be surprised when you find plenty. But also realize that this causes an over representation of how much someone like me actually uses beta.

greg t wrote:"It is strange to observe that ever since man has been drawn to the mountains by a love of wild nature, rigor, solitude, and the unknown, all of which he found in that final refuge, he has done everything to eliminate precisely what he sought there." -Jacques Lagarde

This is only true for sport climbing. Every other discipline values an approach that preserves the wild unknown.

What of the great multipitch sport lines prevalent on limestone that otherwise would be unprotectable. We shouldn't lump all sport climbing together. Cragging, now that is a different story.

I have to say my favorite route description in any guidebook is the beta for the route Sentimental Journey in Red Rocks Odyssey Guidebook. I don't remember it word for word but when summing up the 2500'-ish climb it merely states...find the left facing corner, climb to summit. That's adventure.

greg t wrote:"It is strange to observe that ever since man has been drawn to the mountains by a love of wild nature, rigor, solitude, and the unknown, all of which he found in that final refuge, he has done everything to eliminate precisely what he sought there." -Jacques Lagarde

Blommerz wrote: This is only true for sport climbing. Every other discipline values an approach that preserves the wild unknown.

I don't buy this. Trad routes are often extensively equipped and hardly a day goes by when you don't find people arguing for more or better equipment. The "taming of the wild" happens across the spectrum of climbing genres, and is to some extent inevitable as the population of climbers increases.

I also don't entirely buy the original quote's characterization that "...he has done everything to eliminate precisely what he sought there." For one thing, it seems fairly clear that whatever the original seekers were seeking, there are now a large number of people with other, even contrary, objectives. The "eliminators" are not the same group as the "seekers," and once you understand there is more than one group involved, there is no more "strangeness" in the contradictory outcomes.

Moreover, the seekers, once their numbers have decreased sufficiently, will not be able to prevent the "taming of the wild" even if they truly want to. The only way to deal with increasing environmental impacts is to embrace mitigating "taming" activities such as trail work and fixed descent anchors. So to some extent, the quote could just as well read, "..even his best efforts have not been enough to preserve what he originally sought there."

In some ways and in some places, we have all touched the butterfly's wings, and the forest is not going to be the same.