Mountain Project Logo

Lowering off anchors, rehashhhh

Original Post
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

I distracted the Indian Creek anchors thread and started a pissing match. I ought not have done that. I am sorry, so so sorry.

Now, lets play out the same thing over again here with the 459th version of this subject.

My claim is that it's better to lower than to rap in most single pitch situations. I'll further my claim that those who rap are relative n00bs who have been told to, old farts who don't climb enough to quantify their "years of experience" (ie, grey haired n00bs), or people who do it in one single area and are projecting a local style upon all climbing quite ignorantly.

It's much safer to lower, especially so when the routes are equipped with Mussey Hooks, quick links that aren't tightened down, or biners. A system where you don't untie should become the standard. All it takes is an end to all this pissing and moaning about wear. People get dropped when the guy on the ground isn't clear about what's happening and takes the climber off belay. If we lived in a standard where the climber never got taken off belay in a standard situation, this factor would be eliminated.

Exceptions
-If the route is more than half the length of rope and you're using a tagline, of course you rap.

-If the anchors are those bullshit Metolious fat hangers, those fixe ring combo, if someone stole the bottom half of a two biner/link setup, or any other situation that will miserably twist your rope.

-If (as Gred D alluded to, but erroneously, since he was talking about Indian Creek, the land of vertical and smooth pulls. Maybe he should climb cleaner routes and leave the broken ledgy crap to the spring breakers) the rope pull causes damage to the rock.

Finally, I'll add. I've placed anchors all over the damn place. Many of my friends have placed many more. We're all in agreement. Lower off the damn things, have fun, we hope you enjoyed the route. If you wear out a chain, that's awesome, it means it's getting traffic. Traffic = route developers happy place. So if the dude with the drill and the backpack full of steel says lower away, who then are you saving the wear for?

Bill M · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 317

Either one is fine if you know what you are doing and don't f@ck up. If you don't have to untie lowering is easier. If you have to untie it prob comes down to personal preference

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203
nicelegs wrote:A system where you don't untie should become the standard.
BS, people need to learn to think. You are wanting bringing the !@#$% gym mentally to the outside world. Once ya leave the womb it is a big scary place. Folks need to learn to deal with it.

BTW what is a single pitch? most would say that is a full rope length, it used to be around 50m, then it was 60m. As such, yer not talking about a single pitch but a half pitch. But then again what is a half pitch? It used to be 100' but more and more people are climbing on 70 and even 80 meter ropes.

Climbers need to learn to think least they're gonna die. Some of those gray haired farts do know their shit - like this spring when I taught a guy how to rappel using a double biner brake. The poor guy had taken a bad fail cause he did not know of such vintage techniques. I felt bad for the guy cause such a simple technique would have prevented his injury.

The bottom-line regardless of whether one choses to rappel or lower - %$#@! communicate.
Travis Haussener · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

Rapping with an ATC vs lowering same as far as safety goes IMHO. However, with an auto locking device, way to safer to get lowered. Oh yeah and down in the creek, the land of the vertical, I've been pumped out of my mind where I'm always getting lowered.

Shirtless Mike · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 5,839

Nicelegs, agreed 100% for sport climbing, I'll happily replace worn chains, or lowering biners if it prevents reading about another person decking because their belayer thought they were going to rap.

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I don't care if you belay me with an ATC, a gri-gri or even a cinch, as long as you know how to use it.
I don't care if you tie in with a figure eight, a bowline or a bro knot.
I don't care if you wear a helmet.
I don't care if you indulge in the devil's weed.
I don't care if you don't want to do a buddy check, as long as you don't try to prevent me from doing it for both of us.
But I have just about reached the point where I will NOT climb with anybody that wants to rap off single pitch, fixed anchor routes. There is almost never any reason to do it and I am tired of hearing about folks getting dropped and just don't want to be part of it.
I want my belayer to AUTOMATICALLY assume that it's his/her job to keep me on belay till I am lowered to the ground. Period.
And the best way for them to assume that about me, is if they assume that for themselves.

Some of us just aren't meant to climb together safely.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

Counterpoint: what if single pitch sport is the safest place for new climbers to get live rappel experience under their belt? It is a core skill, and I bet every climber needs to rappel every now and again even if we all lower off 1-pitch sport. They have to learn & practice somewhere; better at the sport crag than halfway up an epic in a storm?

Also to be clear are you saying people should TR off chains/rings? Because unless you do, the last guy has to untie whether its a rap or a lower.

I mean that ain't the case with those beefy hooks, but I have never seen those in the wild anyway...

Mike Cara · · Hendersonville, NC · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 21

Always lower is 100% gym mentality. And I have to be missing something. How can you always lower? You're never supposed to run the rope through the anchors or chains provided for top rope. That action "saws" through the metal. So unless you expect someone to leave draws with lockers at every single pitch anchor, you're always lower approach isn't feasible.

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

A week of lowering off most JTree climbs and you'd need to buy a new rope.

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Greg Egbert wrote: Sounds like the real debate here is not whether we should rappel or lower, but whether we should communicate or not.
If you always lower, there is no need to explicitly communicate your intentions because you are ALWAYS ON BELAY.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264
Mike Caracciolo wrote:Always lower is 100% gym mentality. And I have to be missing something. How can you always lower? You're never supposed to run the rope through the anchors or chains provided for top rope. That action "saws" through the metal. So unless you expect someone to leave draws with lockers at every single pitch anchor, you're always lower approach isn't feasible.
Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

I don't have a problem with either as long as you know what you're doing, and your partner does too. There are situations where one is safer or more reasonable than the other. Lowering on single pitch sport seems more practical and safer in most scenarios, so that's become my default for that style. But I always ask my partners what they prefer before we climb, and come to a consensus on what's gonna happen before either of us leaves the ground.

It would be great if everyone's default was to lower, and every belayer's default was keeping their climber on belay until they are safe on the ground again.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

Lowering from overhanging climbs, especially very overhanging one or roofs is generally safe than rapping

The same goes for traversing climbs

Im not quite sure how my partner would have cleaned this little ruuuf on rappel safely

Im open to practical proven ideas

Zombie roof 12d

;)

Parker Wrozek · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 86

My partners and I like to rap. I would rather come off belay and not worry about what was done on the ground. Pull the rope up, rap, and be done.

It is all about communicating though. Know what you are doing, know what your partners are doing. We also carry radios though which allows no confusion if something has to change (with rope pulls/yelling as backup). If I have any concern on the condition of the anchor I will be rapping for sure though.

It is really all about what you want to do though so go ahead and do it.

Obviously there are plenty of routes where you should lower because it is the only way to clean it (unless a partner seconds it).

JohnnyG · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 10

Sweet thread. Now i will never feel guilty of getting lowered off, even when somebody gives me the stink eye for not rapelling.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

Why is it so hard to understand that you never go off belay when lowering? There should always be a knot tied into the end of the rope. No communication problems, as you are never taken off belay. This is the safest practice......

Bruce Hildenbrand · · Silicon Valley/Boulder · Joined Apr 2003 · Points: 3,615

Hard as it might be to believe I saw a couple of guys climbing who had to lower off the anchors because they only had one belay device between them. What is the climbing world coming to?

RockinOut · · NY, NY · Joined May 2010 · Points: 100
Kyle Christie · · Davis, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 50

I'm cheap...rapping is easier on your rope!

Not that I actually climb enough for it to be a real consideration, but if you and your partner are each lowering off 10 sport pitches every weekend, that could add up.

Yes! Keep those Mussy hook stations coming on newly developed routes!

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Highlander wrote:Why is it so hard to understand that you never go off belay when lowering? There should always be a knot tied into the end of the rope. No communication problems, as you are never taken off belay.
Because I still don't see how I get the rope through the chains without untying? :)
Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256
Patrick Shyvers wrote: Because I still don't see how I get the rope through the chains without untying? :)
You feed a bight of rope through the chains or link and clip a into a locker on your belay loop. Or you simply put the rope through the biners or mussy hooks and lower. If you have to untie the rope to feed through the anchor, you are still on belay, your partner never takes you off and there are ways to back yourself up so that you are still clipped into the rope and being belayed. This elementary level stuff, no wonder there are accidents at the crags.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Lowering off anchors, rehashhhh"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.