Using a single strand of webbing for an anchor

SLippy wrote:I have only ever seen webbing used when it is looped with a water knot. What is to stop you from using it non-looped like one would use (or how I have seen used) a static rope or cordalette? What knot would you use?

Two issues. Material is strong enough but I have seen long pieces of (single strand) webbing extended over a lip stretch more than you would realize and make a sawing action so make sure you deal with that. It was more of an issue for me with constant rappelling than top rope climbing but a sharp edge will slice webbing in half faster than a rope. The other issue is knots. You need to be very careful about the knots that you use. Webbing does not tie like rope at all. I would only use a water knot, overhand on a bight or eight on a bight which means you would have to use your setup with a girth hitch (which you need to be careful with too). If you go to a canyoneering site they will have several different rigging styles you can learn from.

SLippy wrote:some other trust you life to what random people on the internet say sites seem to think that bowline on a bight and overhand on a bight are fine with webbing- which would make the setup more practical to setup and disassemble. thoughts? canyoneeringusa.com/techtip… post=2573368

Information you get from canyoneeringusa is rock solid. Tom Jones has decades of experience as a climber, canyoneer, and canyoneering guide. He has worked at Black Diamond as an engineer and is an MIT grad. I have been out with him, used products he designed and would trust him with my life.

When in CT, I prefer 1/2" logging chain since it can handle abrasion. I usually take a 50 foot piece along for TRing. Of course the gumby in the party gets to carry it.

rging wrote: a sharp edge will slice webbing in half faster than a rope

really, have you tested that theory out? I beg to differ sir.

I wouldn't a thought of it, but cool.

Nothing says gumby-tard faster than bringing 50+' of webbing to a crag; when a hundred foot smaller static would seem more workable to me.

I guess if you were gonna TR some ice, you could use the webbing on the approach like one of those old-school avy cords and just trail it off your haul loop

M Sprague wrote:When in CT, I prefer 1/2" logging chain since it can handle abrasion. I usually take a 50 foot piece along for TRing. Of course the gumby in the party gets to carry it.

I prefer to wrap my 13 mm static in tubular webbing and then put a garden hose over the whole thing when I TR, way lighter than chain bro

slippy you can tie a water knot anywhere along a piece of webbing if you dont know the basics go get a book and a guide dont ask mountain project

Fall Guy wrote: really, have you tested that theory out? I beg to differ sir.

The issue I have with a long (single) piece of webbing is it has so much stretch it literally saws itself in half. There was an accident this past weekend in Utah where 1 inch webbing broke because it rubbed against the rock and did just that sending a man who was rappelling 60 feet to the canyon floor. Fortunatly he lived through it. I like webbing and use it often but you have to be very careful how you use it. Carrying a short piece of hose as someone else suggested is a good idea if you know you are going to top rope over an edge regardless of using webbing or static rope.

rging wrote: The issue I have with a long (single) piece of webbing is it has so much stretch it literally saws itself in half. There was an accident this past weekend in Utah where 1 inch webbing broke because it rubbed against the rock and did just that sending a man who was rappelling 60 feet to the canyon floor. Fortunatly he lived through it. I like webbing and use it often but you have to be very careful how you use it. Carrying a short piece of hose as someone else suggested is a good idea if you know you are going to top rope over an edge regardless of using webbing or static rope.

many people besides myself will argue the statement that webbing is not as strong as static over sharp edges. the truth is webbing molds to the sharp edge much better than a round rope in most situations. of course if the anchor is set up for a bit of swinging/sawing back and forth then you will probably die sooner than later no matter what you use.

First of all, I never saw you say why you planned to do with the anchor. In order (low to high) of loads I would say rapelling, bringing up a second (belay station), top-roping.

For just rapelling, that first site you ask about is Tom's and he is real good. I would definitely listen to him for sound advice about canyoning. Canyoneers will often back up the anchor with a meat anchor and the last person has no redundancy so a word of warning when reading his site. I don't have caving experience so I can't talk to their anchor systems but they are usually very solid because they will be rapping, ascending, dicking around on the end of the rope. Additionally, cave rescue is real hard so they are very adverse to accidents.

SLippy wrote:some other trust you life to what random people on the internet say sites seem to think that bowline on a bight and overhand on a bight are fine with webbing- which would make the setup more practical to setup and disassemble. thoughts? canyoneeringusa.com/techtip… forums.caves.org/viewtopic.… rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…

Brasky wrote:slippy you can tie a water knot anywhere along a piece of webbing if you dont know the basics go get a book and a guide dont ask mountain project

That's not knot (haha) helpful. I would disagree with you about the waterknot being appropriate here due to the manner in which he wants to loop around the tree, I think the overhand on a bight here is much more appropriate due to the loading of the knot.

As an aside, I think Tom's rig of an figure eight bight to then hitch the tree is a much better configuration than a slip knot to hitch around a tree which is way better than slip knotting the tree itself. I think Tom could have shown the hitch a little better, I would probably do it in the way one should girth hitch a tree. i.e. Use more of the friction of the wrap to minimize loading on the hitch webbing interface

I'm trying to figure out if a figure 8 on a bight is any worse or better than overhand on a bight, when used with a single strand of webbing? Seems to me like the figure eight should be stronger than the overhand, but then I've read some posts on other forums where people said it tends to slip more than the overhand? Would securing the loose end with a double-fisherman solve that issue?

matvey wrote:I'm trying to figure out if a figure 8 on a bight is any worse or better than overhand on a bight, when used with a single strand of webbing? Seems to me like the figure eight should be stronger than the overhand, but then I've read some posts on other forums where people said it tends to slip more than the overhand? Would securing the loose end with a double-fisherman solve that issue?

About the only real concern is that the overhand can be quite a bit harder to untie.

FrankPS wrote: About the only real concern is that the overhand can be quite a bit harder to untie.

-- yep, that's another reason I thought maybe figure 8 is a better choice...

any arguments against it?

matvey wrote: -- yep, that's another reason I thought maybe figure 8 is a better choice... any arguments against it?

The figure-8 on a bight will use up more material. This will change the position of your power-point (raising it) which you may (or may not) want. Also, this will increase the subtended angle, putting more force on your anchor points. Again, possibly not a concern if you've got a smallish angle, but may be a concern if it increases that angle past 90 degrees.

Putting in a plug for my favorite stuff for setting toprope anchors: load tie-down strap from your local truck stop. Strength? Your rope AND your double locking biners will all break before it does. 4" wide, so it doesn't cause the bark abrasion on trees that lets in insects or fungi to ultimately kill the tree. Abrasion resistance that puts any rope to shame. If you weigh enough to stretch that stuff you are a grizzly bear or bison; why are you rock climbing? Plus it's a lot easier to carry than logging chain :-) It's cheap, too. Retraced water knot around a tree and run it to the edge, another retraced water knot to make a loop, and clip your toprope lockers in. Simple, quick, and beyond bomber.

That's not a bad idea, although I bet the weight would add up pretty quickly...

And you got me thinking that maybe I should be using the water knot on both ends, not just the tree end of the webbing. Anyone know of any tests of overhand vs figure 8 vs water knot in webbing for creating a loop to clip into?

For redundancy the best way to rig webbing around a tree is double wrap around a tree, tie water knot, water knot toward back of tree, tie a loop in the webbing with a figure eight on a bight and now you have a system redundant of your water knot coming untied because they tend to creep unless tightened extremely tight and you were too cheap to make the tails long enough.