Too much "beta" on MP... losing sense of adventure

The Internet is the best and worst thing to happen to rock climbing and whitewater kayaking.

I guessing I'm an even older and fartier fart than Crackhack. One has to remember that climbing has evolved, and with that evolution come people whose interests and goals are not quite the same as the interests and goals of earlier generations. One way of viewing the evolution is from the perspective of the trad/sport dichotomy, and there is little doubt that sport climbing has driven most of the changes in climbing in, say, the last thirty years. But whatever the original sources of ferment, I think one might understand modern rock climbing better using a different framework. What I have in mind might be called the tension between adventure climbing and performance climbing. The fundamental ingredient in adventure climbing is uncertainty---that's where the adventure comes from. The fundamental ingredient in performance climbing is...performance. These are different perspectives on what can often be the same activity, and the way climbers treat their goals and projects (and evaluate others' successes and failures) depends on which genre they are embracing at the moment, (It is important to understand that the terms describe approaches to climbing and not climbers, who may or may not embrace just one approach.) If climbing is a sport, then I think the adventure genre is something of an anomaly, belonging to the vanishing realm of exploration as much or more than performance. The performance genre of climbing is much closer to other sporting endeavors; gymnastics especially seems to be an appropriate analogy. The gymnast tries to learn routines of great difficulty (for the person in question) on various apparatuses.

If climbing is a sport, then I think the adventure genre is something of an anomaly, belonging to the vanishing realm of exploration as much or more than performance. The performance genre of climbing is much closer to other sporting endeavors; gymnastics especially seems to be an appropriate analogy. The gymnast tries to learn routines of great difficulty (for the person in question) on various apparatuses.

I am probably one of the oldest farts on MP as I started climbing around 1974. No sticky rubber, no chalk, uncomfortable harnesses, passive pro only. In fact, I started climbing the second season that hexes and stoppers were on the market. Everything was trad back then and all of it adventure, too. Guidebooks gave brief, non-detailed descriptions of a route. A 2000 foot Sierra climb had a one paragraph blurb on the climb. Uncertainy, that was the essential element of climbing back then

No bolts and no sport climbs existed. Now things have changed. New styles and new attitudes. It has positively expanded the climbing experience. However, I feel that the advent of gym climbing has diminshed the ethics associated with climbing. Additionally, climbers coming out of the gym environment seem less skilled in their judgement and climbing technics and there seems to be a more pervasively cavilar attitude towards safety. I see people who don't belay properly, aren't paying attention to the leader, and are distracted when they should be wholly focused on the leader. I've even seen people drinking a freakin beer while belaying, listening to music all the while being completely distracted.

Back in the 70s if you were a fuck up as a climber, you never got to climb with any locals, because the climbing community was so small and word got around fast. Now, some idiot can move from one group to another and substandard behavior is more readily accepted.

So, yes I feel the adventure of climbing has diminished and, as an old fart, it has lessened the sport somewhat. Climbers as a group used to be bold, bad-assed, and competent. Not so much anymore.

I offer these comments to spark debate on this thread. I fully expect to be slammed, criticized or perhaps supported, but let the flames begin.

I've reached the point where "performance" is an adventure :)

Tradster wrote: Climbers as a group used to be bold, bad-assed, and competent.

What's that old saying about bold climbers? There are old climbers and bold climbers, but...

Maybe you just aren't in those circles anymore? Or maybe the majority of the people climbing these days just don't think climbing is worth risking life or limb. Back in the day with such a small user group and the commitment that it required to joinin, most people were willing to risk it all for their ego because that's the only thing they did in their lives and not doing so would be to not fulfill 'living to the fullest'.

Morgan Patterson wrote: What's that old saying about bold climbers? There are old climbers and bold climbers, but... Maybe you just aren't in those circles anymore? Or maybe the majority of the people climbing these days just don't think climbing is worth risking life or limb. Back in the day with such a small user group and the commitment that it required to joinin, most people were willing to risk it all for their ego because that's the only thing they did in their lives and not doing so would be to not fulfill 'living to the fullest'.

No maybe about it. At 61 I dont' climb like I once did. There are still some bold yet older climbers. Peter Croft comes to mind. Bonnington is not yet dead, nor is Reinhold.

I admit the adrenal rush from climbing was always a motivation. Plenty of people still are willing to risk it all: super-big wave surfers, rad DH mountain bikers, wingsuit wearing crazies, BASE jumpers. They are still out there, and thank god for it, as I can appreciate their reality via youtube.

I mountain bike more than anything now, as I don't need to round up a partner or drive anywhere to make that happen for me.

But, hell yes, after 40 years of climbing, I aint the spry guy I once was.

I still feel like a bad ass as compared to the Millenians, whose "adventures" are all virtual! Gen X freaking rules! Hipsters can kiss this!

^^^^ exactly the type of unproductive responses that muddy the waters of pretty much every serious discussion here on the forums. If you aren't contributing to the conversation, don't post.

B-Mkll wrote:^^^^ exactly the type of unproductive responses that muddy the waters of pretty much every serious discussion here on the forums. If you aren't contributing to the conversation, don't post.

Yeah!

Oh, I'm sorry, my bad. I honestly thought that discussing topics like that on a climbing beta website were somewhat of a joke. It's an oxymoron.

Tim Lutz wrote:I lost all respect for Honnold when I learned he had sponsorships. Bachar didnt need no stinkin sponsors! Bachar was a real soloist from the Golden Age of climbing.

I would like to reflect on this having recently watched The Valley Uprising. Well, simply put, it was much cheaper to live in the Valley back then. Case closed.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??!!

P.S.
My favorite beta is when people say it isn't 'R' rated because the climbing is easy.

Getting pretty serious

Another thread spiraling out of control. As the OP, let me try to right this.

It seems I've been put into place by none other than rgold in his usual diplomatic and wise style. Thank you for the response without making it personal. Though this post is a bit long, it is attempting to reflect the intentional and productive thought that rgold has modeled.

I apologize to this community for my tone which must have sounded judgmental. Honestly, it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, to foster the type of introspection that rgold obviously has done, but obviously I did not use enough emoticons to convey that ;) It was not meant to alienate or draw a line between us vs them.

So let me take another stab at this in a more carefully worded style. I think this can still turn into a productive dialogue.

First of all, let's clarify that I did not make any judgment about climbing styles. Never did I say that "adventure climbers" are better than "performance climbers" or that old school trad rats are better than the sport kind. I started climbing trad when gyms were starting to sprout so I personally enjoy all styles. In fact I probably spend the majority of my climbing hours bouldering on plastic.

What this thread was intended to discuss was EXCESSIVE BETA brought about by technology. Now a little background may help, humor me...

I recently heard a "futurist" on NPR. These are people who predict the future, not in a psychic freak show sort of way, but in an educated, research-based way (eg, 25 years ago, these guys were predicting a world dominated by handheld touchscreen technology).

So the predictions that futurists are making now is that we are entering a big world of hurt. As much as technology makes our lives more convenient, it also makes it more dangerous. The people who are on the cutting edge of applying technological innovations are the hackers, criminals, and terrorists. Sorry for that downer. And even if there weren't bad people in the world, we are still becoming victims with our over-reliance on technology. It happens slowly without us realizing it... until we are fully dependent on it. We have already reached a point where we pretty much can't get around without cell phones or GPS. At some point, maybe not in our lifetime, when our GPS breaks down, we will not know how to read a map. This is not me saying this. It's by people who know technology, human behavior, sociology.

Now let's bring it back to climbing, albeit in a less dramatic way. My premise is simply this... just because technology gives us access to huge amounts of information doesn't mean we have to use it. I say this not as an old curmudgeon who has never used the internet (I'm only in my mid 40's) but as a recovering beta-holic. I found myself taking notes on every comment someone has made about a route, embedding every online photo of a cliff into my brain, trying to prepare for every possible scenario I might encounter... and I noticed the joy of being outdoors slipping through my fingers.

An analogy from current events may be "The Voice" which I love btw. At times, you hear the singing coaches telling their singers to stop focusing so much on the technique, just enjoy yourself. And when they shift their heart and mind on what is in front of them - an open mic, a roaring crowd, being where they were meant to be - magic happens.

So I'm gonna go pull on plastic, seek beta for that sequence I can't put together, and read MP to make sure I know where that belay anchor is... but I'll also get lost and maybe run into you for directions. May your adventures, of whatever kind they may be, fill you up :)

I think I have a problem too..my brain keeps wanting more info, more data, more beta, more and more. It's never ever enough. It's like ....I don't know.

Everyone knew what you were trying to say. It is just that MP is full of assholes and know it alls.

With regards to your technology / futurist comments: Debby Downers are a dime a dozen. The world should have ended centuries ago and should have been worse than it was yesterday for every tomorrow in history. Being an optimist is hard. Being a pessimist is easy. There's a reason for the abundance of negativity in the world.

Enjoy hucking rock this weekend. Beautiful weather here in SLC for some Little Cottonwood crushing!

Cheers,

Andy

First off, why is a person who is so adamant about keeping it old school and not having beta on a route before attempting it even on Mountain Project?

Admittedly I only read the OP post and a couple of the responses. As far as the, "I want to be hardcore and do things like they did in the old days" argument. Go ahead, leave your cams, belay devices and dynamic ropes behind. Grab a rack of pitons you made in your garage, a 100 foot cotton rope, your work boots, and a partner who also wants to play the "old school adventure" game and hit a piece of rock that you have never seen before. If you do this and come back I will honor you for a life time and congratulate you with $100. If you do not do this, you my sir are being a hypocrite.

I get what you are saying about the beta on this site, but there are many advances in climbing that keep people safe and mountain project is one of them. The move by move description of a route is a bit much I agree with you on that. However, beta on WHAT gear to bring (not where to place it), how to access the rappel or descent, any dangerous terrain, if I may be facing a 60 footer at any point, obstacles that may catch a rope or make communication impossible, etc. These types of "beta" will help more people to safely enjoy more climbs.

My projected solution for the problem, have a "beta" tab under the climbs. This way the route description will have the information that will help keep people safe, ie, the difficulty rating, the safety rating, and whether it is trad or sport. From there, a tab should be available for any other "beta" that people would like to share.

Crackhack wrote:My premise is simply this... just because technology gives us access to huge amounts of information doesn't mean we have to use it.

Yes, you are free to reinvent the wheel in the most f&*ked up way imageable. Yes, there is value in solving a problem in the old fashion way, but w/ the speed of technological advances, you simply can't keep up. Seriously, I've become proficient in many things in part because of the huge amount of information that's readily available, from fixing cars, household appliances to training, gear wanking, crack climbing, etc, etc.

The Flying Dutchman wrote:First off, why is a person who is so adamant about keeping it old school and not having beta on a route before attempting it even on Mountain Project? Admittedly I only read the OP post and a couple of the responses. As far as the, "I want to be hardcore and do things like they did in the old days" argument. Go ahead, leave your cams, belay devices and dynamic ropes behind. Grab a rack of pitons you made in your garage, a 100 foot cotton rope, your work boots, and a partner who also wants to play the "old school adventure" game and hit a piece of rock that you have never seen before. If you do this and come back I will honor you for a life time and congratulate you with $100. If you do not do this, you my sir are being a hypocrite. I get what you are saying about the beta on this site, but there are many advances in climbing that keep people safe and mountain project is one of them. The move by move description of a route is a bit much I agree with you on that. However, beta on WHAT gear to bring (not where to place it), how to access the rappel or descent, any dangerous terrain, if I may be facing a 60 footer at any point, obstacles that may catch a rope or make communication impossible, etc. These types of "beta" will help more people to safely enjoy more climbs. My projected solution for the problem, have a "beta" tab under the climbs. This way the route description will have the information that will help keep people safe, ie, the difficulty rating, the safety rating, and whether it is trad or sport. From there, a tab should be available for any other "beta" that people would like to share.

Good post. I have sought out beta on various climbs which proved super valuable when selecting my rack. Modern gear is the way to go as is gathering any relevant info on the climb ahead of time. Prior planning prevents piss poor performance. One reason I focused on trad was that was my original focus and I pretty much sucked as a sport climber. Hardcore can apply to trad or sport. It's the individuals attitude and approach towards climbing that makes the climber who they are. Trust me I don't wear Pierrre Alains, Whillian's Sit Harnesses, or any of that old school stuff. Love my cams and have plenty of them. If someone doesn't want the beta, don't read the beta.

MP is feeding my beta addiction...

Oh, I feel misunderstood today. Yes, my own doing, but still... Please read my above post before flaming (I realize it's long but it may clarify and help stay on topic). Sorry, the bolding is just to help this not get lost in the fray. No fight to be had here.