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Stainless Vs Carbon Steel Bolts
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I´ll admit I smiled at that before I went off this morning to continue my cutting-edge bolt manufacture (a load of 316L chainsets for the UK and some 1.4462 stuff for Greece). With all due respect to Miki and the guys down in Australia my impression is there is distinct pecking order when it comes to bolting technology and particularly glue-in bolts. I´d say that Australia is somewhat further down the ladder than Europe and America and I´m not sure that a country with no organised bolt testing, no standards, no local manufacturers and an appreciation for carrot bolts is exactly the place to go for an expert opinion. As an Englishman I´d venture to say there is absolutely nothing we can learn from Australia about anything whatsoever but that´s probably my ex-colonial views coming out. Even the beer is an affront to civilisation, a word rarely used in conjunction with Australia:-) |
Jim Titt wrote:I´ll admit I smiled at that before I went off this morning to continue my cutting-edge bolt manufacture (a load of 316L chainsets for the UK and some 1.4462 stuff for Greece). With all due respect to Miki and the guys down in Australia my impression is there is distinct pecking order when it comes to bolting technology and particularly glue-in bolts. I´d say that Australia is somewhat further down the ladder than Europe and America and I´m not sure that a country with no organised bolt testing, no standards, no local manufacturers and an appreciation for carrot bolts is exactly the place to go for an expert opinion. As an Englishman I´d venture to say there is absolutely nothing we can learn from Australia about anything whatsoever but that´s probably my ex-colonial views coming out. Even the beer is an affront to civilisation, a word rarely used in conjunction with Australia:-):-) |
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Hilarious Jim! |
Jim Titt wrote:I´ll admit I smiled at that before I went off this morning to continue my cutting-edge bolt manufacture (a load of 316L chainsets for the UK and some 1.4462 stuff for Greece). With all due respect to Miki and the guys down in Australia my impression is there is distinct pecking order when it comes to bolting technology and particularly glue-in bolts. I´d say that Australia is somewhat further down the ladder than Europe and America and I´m not sure that a country with no organised bolt testing, no standards, no local manufacturers and an appreciation for carrot bolts is exactly the place to go for an expert opinion. As an Englishman I´d venture to say there is absolutely nothing we can learn from Australia about anything whatsoever but that´s probably my ex-colonial views coming out. Even the beer is an affront to civilisation, a word rarely used in conjunction with Australia:-)Your post gave me a smile too Jim. Mike Law IS top of the pecking order. He has a PhD in Materials Science and does a LOT of testing of bolts and gear. There IS local manufacture, although confined to backyards. There ARE standards, although mainly confined to who can yell the loudest and curse the worst on Chockstone.org. Yes, most prefer to demonstrate their lack of civility and civilisation. Please post your comments above on Chockstone. I'd love to see the reaction. |
Syd wrote: Your post gave me a smile too Jim. Mike Law IS top of the pecking order. He has a PhD in Materials Science and does a LOT of testing of bolts and gear. There IS local manufacture, although confined to backyards. There ARE standards, although mainly confined to who can yell the loudest and curse the worst on Chockstone.org. Yes, most prefer to demonstrate their lack of civility and civilisation. Please post your comments above on Chockstone. I'd love to see the reaction.Damn, that site looks like it was made when Windows 95 was new. |
20 kN wrote: Damn, that site looks like it was made when Windows 95 was new.It's so old my phone won't even open it. |
Syd wrote: Your post gave me a smile too Jim. Mike Law IS top of the pecking order. He has a PhD in Materials Science and does a LOT of testing of bolts and gear. There IS local manufacture, although confined to backyards. There ARE standards, although mainly confined to who can yell the loudest and curse the worst on Chockstone.org. Yes, most prefer to demonstrate their lack of civility and civilisation. Please post your comments above on Chockstone. I'd love to see the reaction.Well all kidding aside I do have contact with some of the Australian locals BUT Australia isn´t really the place I think of as a source of technical information about bolting to the modern standards which are becoming normal all over the world. A country with animals that hop and birds that can´t fly seems to have different mindset to the rest of us:-) |
Syd wrote: Please post your comments above on Chockstone. I'd love to see the reaction.Oh boy, it's tempting... background story About a year ago I sent an email to all my climbing friends, a lot of people, warning them about Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) of the bolts in Kalymnos. This email got passed on, friend to friend, until it was posted on a South Africa site: climbing.co.za/2013/05/kaly… I was cursed, reviled and threatened with lawsuits. Of course, after several months it was found I was telling the truth. While I certainly can't take all the credit, it does seem to me that that muckraking episode, a.k.a. a kick-in-the-ass, has culminated in the forthcoming UIAA corrosion guidelines, due out this year. Now, do I really want to get into it (again) on Chockstone.com? Hey Syd, maybe you should just post a link to this thread and see what happens ;-) |
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The UIAA have been discussing corrosion guidelines for well over 20 years and included titanium in the 1996 standard which was completely ignored, introduced another load of complication and some bizarre criteria for the 2004 draft revision which failed to be approved and dropped the issue and a material requirement for the 2006 standard. You really think half a dozen people who were already involved re-hashing the same arguments on an obscure website makes any difference? |
Jim Titt wrote:The UIAA have been discussing corrosion guidelines for well over 20 years and included titanium in the 1996 standard which was completely ignored, introduced another load of complication and some bizarre criteria for the 2004 draft revision which failed to be approved and dropped the issue and a material requirement for the 2006 standard. You really think half a dozen people who were already involved re-hashing the same arguments on an obscure website makes any difference?I dont know that it matters much either way. People are going to do as they do regardless of what the UIAA says. Manufacturers are only going to manufacturer what buyers are willing to buy, regardless of what the UIAA says. The standard calls for at least 316 everywhere, and at least 2205 anywhere it rains often. I dont see that becoming the norm unless the price of those materials drop. Half the FAs out there dont even want to use 304! FAs are not going to be willing to invest that much money if not absolutely necessary, and manufacturers are not going to develop the product when FAs wont buy it. |
20 kN wrote: I dont know that it matters much either way. People are going to do as they do regardless of what the UIAA says. Manufacturers are only going to manufacturer what buyers are willing to buy, regardless of what the UIAA says. The standard calls for at least 316 everywhere, and at least 2205 anywhere it rains often. I dont see that becoming the norm unless the price of those materials drop. Half the FAs out there dont even want to use 304! FAs are not going to be willing to invest that much money if not absolutely necessary, and manufacturers are not going to develop the product when FAs wont buy it.I guess I'm more optimistic than both of you. One reason is, as I said earlier, is that rebolting is occurring world-wide on an unprecedented scale. Most of the areas are being rebolted for the second time, but some are on their third, fourth or fifth iteration, because they repeated the original mistake and reinstalled stainless steel. That's all wasted money, not to mention the labor, which is more valuable. Also the rebolting is, more and more frequently, being done by organizations such as the Thaitanium Project, ASCA, the projects in Brazil, Kalymnos, the U.K., etc. There's now enough information about WHY rebolting is needed, and what materials should be used. The UIAA guidelines will disseminate this information. Even dirt-bag FA's can understand that, if you use stainless in the wrong environment, you'll have to rebolt every 5 years, so it's much CHEAPER to bolt it once with titanium, which should last several hundred years. And if local organizations, such as the ASCA in the U.S., can subsidize this, then the entire climbing community benefits. 20kN, I know you have at least one total asshole FA'er out there, maybe a bunch of them. Make it obvious to the entire climbing community that they are assholes for doing what they are doing, because it will cost more to rebolt those routes, and much, much more if you don't and someone falls and is injured or killed. Remove their routes, they're unsafe. Remove their routes from the guide, or put in a clear warning that their routes are unsafe. Coordinate with the ASCA and/or Access Fund. Create a pool, funded by the community, to provide subsidized bolts of the appropriate material. Yes, there's work involved but it's LESS WORK overall, less expensive, and a hell of a lot safer for everyone. I know you have access issues. These will not go away when the land managers find out the bolts break. It's not impossible, I've done it. All routes on Cayman Brac are bolted with titanium. For 15 years I've coordinated the rebolting and the bolting of new routes. I've done most of the work myself. I've provided most of the money myself, although I have some very appreciated donors too. I had to do it myself because there is no ASCA or Access Fund down there. So contact them. Get started. |
20 kN wrote: I dont know that it matters much either way. People are going to do as they do regardless of what the UIAA says. Manufacturers are only going to manufacturer what buyers are willing to buy, regardless of what the UIAA says. The standard calls for at least 316 everywhere, and at least 2205 anywhere it rains often. I dont see that becoming the norm unless the price of those materials drop. Half the FAs out there dont even want to use 304! FAs are not going to be willing to invest that much money if not absolutely necessary, and manufacturers are not going to develop the product when FAs wont buy it.Yup, climbers have been bolting for the last hundred years or so, developed their own standards, worked out what works best for them and the industry has innovated, developed and supplied them all without any imput or interference from the UIAA. Bolting a few areas to a luxury standard is however not the issue at the momement or in the foreseeable future, getting the enormous backlog of junk up to an acceptable standard is the primary objective as well as (as John has referred to) getting the climbing population to work out a way of supplying ongoing finance for bolting. The technical matters are a side issue while we continue to indulge in a sport with no identifiable method of funding basic safety. |
Jim Titt wrote: Well all kidding aside I do have contact with some of the Australian locals BUT Australia isn´t really the place I think of as a source of technical information about bolting to the modern standards which are becoming normal all over the world. A country with animals that hop and birds that can´t fly seems to have different mindset to the rest of us:-)Come on Jim, enlighten them! Surely best practice should be adopted world wide. Lots of folk do travel down under you know. Thrash it out on Chockstone.org |
Syd wrote: Come on Jim, enlighten them! Surely best practice should be adopted world wide. Lots of folk do travel down under you know. Thrash it out on Chockstone.orgErr, wrong guy. I don´t do "enlightenment" only the techy stuff, John Byrnes is the guy to tell you what to do for your own good. You don´t need to post a link to chockstone, firstly their server has been a shambles for the last few weeks when you try to access from Europe at least and secondly I´ve been registered there for years under my own name, post occasionally and follow the discussions which is why I have complete confidence that Miki and the guys do a fine job under the restraints that are inevitable for nearly all developers. |
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We've been doing a lot of rebolting here in the Red, (thanks ASCA) first and second generation bolts are becoming quite rusty. Luckily or perhaps miracuously, carbon steel bolts that I've replaced which had entire portions of the bolts completely rusted away were (and are) still holding falls, but very sketchy to look at to say the least. Up until very recently the standard for the Red has been 1/2 carbon steel rawls with stainless hangers, this is changing as the community has begun subsidizing stainless for developers of new routes, which is a big step towards sustainability. I don't believe the conditions here are harsh enough to consider using titanium (nor is the money there). I've been using waves for replacement and expect them to have a long lifespan, perhaps 40 to 50 years. On more popular routes I've used 5/8th inch waves which I'm certain will last as long as the glue does, atleast my lifetime. Jim, I have placed one of your bolts, which we have nicknamed the 'Titty Twister.' |
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A little off subject but pictures of replaced bolts: |
