Fall in Eldo Sunday evening

O.L.D.S.A.G. wrote:You might be simul-climbing but either way, you have no choice so you just have to go.

That depends, though. Say the pitch is 50 feet shorter than the length of the rope: if you start climbing before you're put on belay, you're "simul-climbing" with 50 feet of slack - not exactly ideal! Hence I stand by my "one-minute rule". But, honestly, as has already been pointed out, there are a number of methods that work, as long as you're both on the same page and paying attention.

Apart from the lack of clear communication, he should have also done the smart thing and weight tested the rope. If the other guy had enough time to take off the harness, then it must have been assumed he was locked direct into the anchors. But the harness shouldn't come off until everyone is safely down.

@ multi-pitch topic:
And you shouldn't be simul-climbing with 50ft of slack piled at your waist. If you are, you're doing it wrong. If you know you have a 150ft pitch and you get to the point of needing to simul-climb or else you run out of rope, then you stay put and make the leader down climb into shouting range so you can figure out what is going wrong. Worst case is a low factor fall. Ideal case, your partner pokes his head around the corner and yells "What the fuck's going on?!" over the wind. And definitely wait for the rope to be tight again after you've climbed a couple of moves.

Eliot Augusto wrote: And you shouldn't be simul-climbing with 50ft of slack piled at your waist. If you are, you're doing it wrong. If you know you have a 150ft pitch and you get to the point of needing to simul-climb or else you run out of rope, then you stay put and make the leader down climb into shouting range so you can figure out what is going wrong. Worst case is a low factor fall. Ideal case, your partner pokes his head around the corner and yells "What the fuck's going on?!" over the wind. And definitely wait for the rope to be tight again after you've climbed a couple of moves.

I think we're talking about different things here. The discussion (at least as far as I understood it) wasn't about intentional simul-climbing, but rather about what happens in a pitched-out climbing scenario when a belayer's rope comes taut. A previous poster indicated that at that point, you are effectively simul-climbing, to which I replied that this is only the case if the leader has completely run out of rope. As far as "needing to simul-climb", I agree with you and I will never start simul-climbing unless it has been specifically agreed upon before starting the pitch. Otherwise it's the leader's responsibility to either make an anchor at the end of the rope, or indeed downclimb and make one where feasible.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: I think we're talking about different things here. The discussion (at least as far as I understood it) wasn't about intentional simul-climbing, but rather about what happens in a pitched-out climbing scenario when a belayer's rope comes taut.

I too was referring to that. But the way you phrased it makes it sound like it was a 150ft pitch to the top of a cliff, leaving 50ft+ of rope left to go through the belay device once he has reached the top. And if that 50ft comes out and you get taut(by a steady stream of rope, as if he is climbing and not pulling up the rope), I wouldn't start simul-climbing in that scenario.

I've climbed enough with my trad partner to know when he is climbing and when he is pulling up rope when out of sight, and about how long it takes for him to build an anchor. I haven't done trad at all or much sport with many other people, so that's just what I'd do in that situation, because something wouldn't be right.

If you're referring to a mid climb pitch (pitch 5 of an 11 pitch) then simul-climbing to the next belay stance makes it a must at times. And we agree to agree.

I like adding in the name thing in a crowded/noisy area Last winter at Vail some bloke was blabbing at top volume inches from my belayer making it hard for her to hear me. "Take" and "lower" are the only commands I use when lowering. What I notice is that by days end people are fixating on their date/party/phone/dog/next-day-climbing-partner etc. they become disengaged from the task at hand as their ADHD sends them hurtling toward their next distraction. It is always good to call it quits before you epic, you can't take all the toys home...

Hey maybe I missed something but it sounds like the accident here was not the result of an inability to hear and they weren't doing multipitch. It seems like this was the all-too-typical failure to communicate. I learned something on this site several years ago-- I think it was in a post by jt512 or whatever his name is.

Ideally my partner and I speak before the beginning of the pitch and agree on whether the leader is to be lowered off or rappel.

Even if we've discussed it in advance, when the leader reaches the anchor, if he or she says "off belay," I ask "are you planning to rappel?"

This solves everything. If the answer is "yes," then I take the leader off belay.

If the answer is "no, I want you to lower me," then I don't take them off. I feed them slack and keep them on.

Simple.

SethG wrote: It seems like this was the all-too-typical failure to communicate.

Failure to communicate effectively is only ONE factor in this accident.

SethG wrote: Ideally my partner and I speak before the beginning of the pitch and agree on whether the leader is to be lowered off or rappel. Even if we've discussed it in advance, when the leader reaches the anchor, if he or she says "off belay," I ask "are you planning to rappel?" This solves everything. If the answer is "yes," then I take the leader off belay. If the answer is "no, I want you to lower me," then I don't take them off. I feed them slack and keep them on. Simple.

I disagree. Things change, people change their minds, and you should never take your partner off belay without a clear and express command to do so. If you've already agreed, then that command can be as simple as making eye contact and waving a hand, but it's current and clear.

As I posted earlier, this accident would have been avoided if the climber had verified that the rope took his weight before unclipping from the anchor.

This simple check should be a habit and will prevent many, many lowering/rappelling accidents.

Alexey Dynkin wrote: In practice, the "tug" method is often unreliable, particularly when you have a long, wandering pitch with a lot of friction in the system. I generally follow an agreed-upon "one-minute rule" with my climbing partners: once the rope comes taut, wait one minute and then start climbing. I also climb slowly for the first few moves and make sure that the slack is being taken up before continuing.

The "tug method" is VERY reliable, IMNSOHO.

Once all the extra rope has gone up, you feel your leader tugging on the rope: one, two, three. When you take the rope out of your device: one, two, three. When you unclip the first anchor, or move in the direction of the rope: one, two, three. Pretty damned clear.

If there's so much drag you can't feel the rope being tugged, sure, you gotta go at some point, but your leader screwed up.

If you just wait one minute and go, it's not clear to me that you're actually on belay. Your leader could still be putting in anchors, arranging the rope, taking off his shoes, etc.

Bill M wrote:I have to agree witht the previous post. I decked in a climbing gym because my belayer rigged his grigri backwards and then lost control of the belay

This happens a lot.

Before leading I actually yank on the rope, saying "...loaded." This verifies the Grigri or ATC is loaded correctly.

It's part of my mantra: "Doubled" (belayer's harness), "looped" (device properly clipped into belay loop), "locked" (locking biner locked), "and loaded" (yank on rope, lock up device).

John Byrnes wrote: Your leader could still be putting in anchors, arranging the rope, taking off his shoes, etc.

In the method I describe, it's understood that the things you mention are all done before the slack gets taken in. That's how it is, every time, no exception. Been doing it this way for years and never once had a problem, whereas with tugs, half the time I or my partner couldn't feel them. And that's why I stress that the main thing that matters is that you and your partner are on the same page about whatever system you use, and are paying careful attention. As long as those things are true, there are a number of ways to climb safely and avoid communication problems.

John Byrnes wrote: Failure to communicate effectively is only ONE factor in this accident. I disagree. Things change, people change their minds, and you should never take your partner off belay without a clear and express command to do so. If you've already agreed, then that command can be as simple as making eye contact and waving a hand, but it's current and clear. As I posted earlier, this accident would have been avoided if the climber had verified that the rope took his weight before unclipping from the anchor. This simple check should be a habit and will prevent many, many lowering/rappelling accidents.

Agreed. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I cannot fathom why anyone would ever transition from going in direct on an anchor to rapping or lowering without first sitting on the rope to make sure the setup is correct. It literally takes zero extra time. If you're lowering, feed the rope, tie in, say take, feel the rope take your weight without going off direct, and THEN unclip from the anchor and lower. If you're rapping, feed the rope, put yourself on rappel, take up the slack so you're on the rope (and whatever you're in direct with is loose), do a quick visual triple-check, and THEN unclip from the anchor. Failing to do this simple, easy check is totally and unnecessarily reckless.

John Byrnes wrote: If you've already agreed, then that command can be as simple as making eye contact and waving a hand, but it's current and clear.

Simply waving a hand is not a clear enough signal to take someone off belay, even if it is the signal that was agreed upon (I would never agree to use that signal). If I'm belaying somewhere with lots of noise, I'll have my climber use the "throat slash" gesture to signal "off belay". It's pretty hard to confuse that gesture with anything else, and it also represents the seriousness of going off belay.

I like to ease my weight back into the system when moving from straight into the anchor switching over to rapping or lowering. Slowly loading my harness to be sure everything is as it should be, biners oriented correctly, device engaging. If being lowered. I keep a hand on the rope for the first 5-10 feet just in case.

John Byrnes wrote: Failure to communicate effectively is only ONE factor in this accident. I disagree. Things change, people change their minds, and you should never take your partner off belay without a clear and express command to do so. If you've already agreed, then that command can be as simple as making eye contact and waving a hand, but it's current and clear. As I posted earlier, this accident would have been avoided if the climber had verified that the rope took his weight before unclipping from the anchor. This simple check should be a habit and will prevent many, many lowering/rappelling accidents.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? SethG has already stated that his partner has called off belay...an express command to take them off belay. If there is still some confusion they verify that their climber intends to rap. If they say yes, take them off belay. If they say no (they should have never called off belay) then you do not remove their belay. If the answer is unclear, keep them on belay. Your suggestion for the climber to weight the rope before unclipping from the anchor is also a good idea. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Both safeguards can and should be performed.

I also think that many of these accidents come when the climber never clipped into the anchor in the first place. ie, they climb up to the anchor and expect to be lowered, so they do not clip into the anchor at all. The belayer takes them off belay thinking they are in direct and going to rap. So in this scenario, weighting your anchor is not really an option. Most people are not going to clip into an anchor if they reach the top expecting to be lowered. I will often grab the belayer's side of the rope when I yell take at the anchor and hold onto it until I am sure they are holding my weight.

Craig Childre wrote:I like to ease my weight back into the system when moving from straight into the anchor switching over to rapping or lowering. Slowly loading my harness to be sure everything is as it should be, biners oriented correctly, device engaging. If being lowered. I keep a hand on the rope for the first 5-10 feet just in case.

You'd never be able to hold yourself with a hand on the rope on an overhang, and besides, there's other things that can go wrong.

I had a friend who, being cold and in a hurry, planned to rappel from a good ledge. He fed both strands through his ATC but only clipped one strand into his locking biner. He unclipped and leaned back. He died.

The key is to clip directly to the anchor with some long slings, or equivalent.

Now you're hanging below the anchor so you can thread or set-up your rappel.

When you're ready to go down, you say "Take!" or get on rappel.

Now, if everything is going right, your long slings are slack and you've verified that the rope has your weight. Now you can unclip.

Old Sag wrote: You should have double checked his setup (your belay), and he should have checked your knot before you started climbing. Belay accidents are preventable.

100% correct, I am glad I learned that lesson without seriously hurting myself. My point is that the person leading or expecting to get lowered ultimately pays the higher price of mistakes and therefore should be the one most vigilant when checking things.

This happens all too often here and I guess everywhere in climbing. Glad he made it

John Byrnes wrote: You'd never be able to hold yourself with a hand on the rope on an overhang, and besides, there's other things that can go wrong. I had a friend who, being cold and in a hurry, planned to rappel from a good ledge. He fed both strands through his ATC but only clipped one strand into his locking biner. He unclipped and leaned back. He died. The key is to clip directly to the anchor with some long slings, or equivalent. Now you're hanging below the anchor so you can thread or set-up your rappel. When you're ready to go down, you say "Take!" or get on rappel. Now, if everything is going right, your long slings are slack and you've verified that the rope has your weight. Now you can unclip.

If I am going to rappel, of course I am going to clip into the anchor and weight the rope before removing my tether to the anchor.

I am talking about a situation where you do not intend to rappel. First, this is something you should have talked about on the ground.

This can come into play with either:

a) you are cleaning the anchors. In this case, yes you clip directly into the anchors and verify that your belayer has your weight before removing whatever you used to clip in direct.

or

b) the anchors are not being cleaned at all. The climber just climbed the pitch (led or TR, doesn't matter) and gets to the top, yells "take" and intends to lower off. In this case nobody clips directly into the anchor before committing their weight to the lower. Why a belayer would take them off belay is beyond me, but it does happen. This is where I will sometimes grab the belayer's side rope before committing my weight to the belayer. Yes you can hold yourself fine, even on overhangs, I've done it hundreds of times. Yes it's a little harder on overhangs than if you have a good stance, but in general I'm not talking about typical short steep sport climbs. It's pretty obvious there when the climber "takes" atthe anchor. The confusion comes more often in places where the belayer can't see or hear you very well, not your typical overhanging sport climb.

Pick your partners/belayers wisely. Communicate your intentions precisely. Cover your own ass, you are the only one responsible for your safety.

John Byrnes wrote: Failure to communicate effectively is only ONE factor in this accident. I disagree. Things change, people change their minds, and you should never take your partner off belay without a clear and express command to do so. If you've already agreed, then that command can be as simple as making eye contact and waving a hand, but it's current and clear. As I posted earlier, this accident would have been avoided if the climber had verified that the rope took his weight before unclipping from the anchor. This simple check should be a habit and will prevent many, many lowering/rappelling accidents.

I don't think we disagree about anything.

It seems to me that there are an inordinate number of these kinds of accidents, and just falls in general, happening in Eldorado Canyon. Far more so it seems than in any other climbing "mecca" in the US. It may be that the poster-base of MP has a particularly high representation from the Colorado Front Range and so these incidents merely receive more coverage here, but I'd like to hear people's opinions on what they think may explain this phenomenon.